USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by West Coast

Gertrude

I offered the reference a number of pages back.

Actually, you didn't. You offered a reference to 14 CFR 250.5

That, as has been pointed out to you, stipulates the compensation that the airline must pay to those denied boarding involuntarily. It does not limit what the airline can offer in order to solicit those willing to voluntarily give up their spot.

[aox]

Originally Posted by meadowrun

Don't think we'll see an end to the practice of overbooking flights. Statistics show there are always a percentage of no-shows and yield management reigns supreme.
Canada is introducing a passenger's rights bill federally but the minister has conceded that over booking is a fact of this business's life and the bill will focus on fair compensation for various results of inconveniences suffered due to circumstances within an airline's control.

On another forum someone posted a link to an article about how many passengers on United and other airlines have been involuntarily bumped off the flight.

42,500 in 5 years - average over 20 a day

Two other airlines have higher pro rata rates, but maybe United is larger, I don't know.

There is also a comparison of voluntary rates. Between the 2 categories United is bumping about 1 in 1000 passengers.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...LeL/story.html

Others will know more than me, but I assume that overbooking happens because some business travellers who don't know how long their visit might be are allowed to book a spread of 4 or 5 trips and not pay until they actually choose which one to turn up for.

A few years ago, I saw an airline pilot friend do this with hotels. We arrived a day before him, and because we had 2 or 3 hours to spare in the afternoon we had to drive around them and decide which one he liked (and possibly us too, though in the end the unbooked one we arrived in at 10 pm could let us stay the whole term).

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by 5000 metres

If I withheld my SLF $$$$ from a carrier based on non-safety-related fubar incidents, I wouldn't be left with a domestic (US) carrier to carry me.

None of which seems to be trying terribly hard to dissuade me from my view that I'm quite happy not going to the USA.


My main reasons, before Trump, were the guns and the fingerprints. My wife has to go to the USA on business from time to time, but she's long since decided to avoid using USA airlines, so as she wouldn't use United anyway they won't be losing her custom over this incident.

[slip and turn]

Originally Posted by stator vane

If it had happened to me...and I was told to get off the airplane, I would not refuse. I would ask why, maybe complain, but never think to refuse to get off when told by the airline crew and especially any security crew. I really don't see any validity in refusing to get off when told.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Tell us please that you would never have before imagined anything like this happening to a passenger already boarded and seated in their allocated seat? Or maybe you are you saying there is an SOP for passengers finding themselves in such a situation?

The staff executing what they saw as within their authority and following protocol were clearly idiots who should never be employed in any capacity on an aircraft.

If the captain was aware of what his co-workers/crew were doing and did nothing to intervene then he or she too should never be employed in any capacity on an aircraft, doors closed or not. A decision to do nothing in a crisis is not a good propensity in a cockpit especially if it dismisses a deteriorating cabin environment entirely.

The eventual apology from Oscar Munoz is even dressed in a way that indicates it is nothing to do with him. It is totally to do with culture from the top that makes employees feel they are empowered or can get away with such barbaric behaviour. No three week investigation is necessary. Right-minded observers know who to blame already and it isn't the little people.

Disgraceful.

[Piper_Driver]

Originally Posted by aox

Others will know more than me, but I assume that overbooking happens because some business travellers who don't know how long their visit might be are allowed to book a spread of 4 or 5 trips and not pay until they actually choose which one to turn up for.

I'd say a big part of the reason for missed flights is missed connections on multi-leg flights. It's happened to me a lot!

[ShyTorque]

Surely the rules state the minimum compensation required by law, not the maximum limit.

[wings folded]

This Munoz fellow is not just a bad CEO.
His grasp of subjective pronouns is very dubious.
when he said "we" take full resposibility, he perhaps meant "I" take full resposibility.

It appears that he is awarded between 6 and 7 million remuneration in varying forms.

Does he deserve any of this?

[slip and turn]

Originally Posted by BluSdUp

Just back from a great day fishing. Lots of cod and blood.
Just like on overbooked United flight.
Cod or Torsk is also a general insult in Norway,,,,,,

You mean as in the British colloquialism 'codswallop'? I think it is what is discarded and the manner in which it is discarded that is the insult - the fish itself is excellent - if not overfished

I work for a company that has 400 737- 800 and 3 Learjets for teck support and NEVER overbook.

Are you sure about that? I think it used to be true, but Ryanair has acquired such robust data on its own operations that its statisticians can currently predict with supreme confidence how to overbook and manage standbys without any likely incident. How do you think it regularly ends end up with sequence numbers on some Boarding Passes with numbers greater than 189 if it does not overbook? And why does it allow up to 10 standby passengers per flight but very rigorously not confirm they can go through the gate until all other passengers are boarded with the gate otherwise closed?

In Norway they are talking about banning overbooking as we speak.

Interesting.

[armchairpilot94116]

Lordy Lordy this Own Goal by United has been all over the news in the Bay Area, as well as around the world. Lambasted on late night shows, lawyers talking about multi million dollar compensation, stock drops, etc.

Announcer on local TV said it would be less damaging if United actually crashed the plane !

Took three tries before Munoz (CEO) issued an apology to the person abused. After calling him belligerent initially.

Can you imagine Singapore Airlines doing this? Cathay Pacific? EVA air? Korean? Anyone (other then a fellow American airline).

United is the brunt of all jokes now.

Twitter users hit United Airlines with memes after passenger violently dragged off plane - SFGate

[Piltdown Man]

I convinced I'm in a minority of one on this thread. Given that we know nothing of what tanspired before we saw this gentleman being dragged off, we assume that this was an unlawful and illegal act carried out by some pseudo law enforcement personnel. Why? I must be missing something. Will someone please tell me what it is.

[Matt48]

Way to go UA, that'll show'em, turf a booked, paid for and seated passenger off just to seat a staff member, have the rules just changed as regards jump seat flights.

[WHBM]

The stuff about overbooking is not relevant here. This flight was not overbooked. The carrier decided to send staff members by it although all seats were sold.

Overbooking normally works for a variety of reasons, first is that departing a hub (as here) with many/most having connected, a proportion typically do not make it because their inbound was late. Another significant proportion is those high-payers with flexible tickets change plans on the day, in particular meeting ended early and they transfer forward to an earlier flight, freeing up seats on later departures.

[wings folded]

Originally Posted by Claybird

He was asked to deplane. He refused a lawful command by the crew. Yes, the manner he was removed in is awful, but this has NOTHING to do with whether the command for his removal from the flight was lawful or not.

What absolute nonsense. He seems to have presented no danger to the safe conduct of the flight prior to being assaulted by uniformed (only just - since when are jeans standard issue to the police?) "security"

Munoz's explanation that he was belligerant is self serving crap. Who would not get a little upset at being chucked off a flight while sitting peacefully in their assigned seat, on the feeble grounds that the airline had amade a total balls up on the load, and needed seats to relocate their own staff.

[Matt48]

As usual, the media can't get the story right, it wasn't an overbooking issue, seems to be some internal problems at UA to allow this sort of drama to happen in full view of a plane full of passengers, UA are in for a world of hurt when this gets to court.

[wings folded]

It won't get to court.
A settlement will be agreed. It could be for quite a lot, but the cost of it will not fall on shareholders or Munoz, just a few cents more on each ticket.
That's the American way.

[Photonic]

Originally Posted by Piltdown Man

I convinced I'm in a minority of one on this thread. Given that we know nothing of what tanspired before we saw this gentleman being dragged off, we assume that this was an unlawful and illegal act carried out by some pseudo law enforcement personnel. Why? I must be missing something. Will someone please tell me what it is.

It's not a question of being unlawful or illegal, just totally unnecessary. Here's what we know so far, about what transpired. The airline got 3 seats freed up at the $800 offer level, and stopped the bidding there without going higher. The person in question inquired about the offer, and declined after finding out he would miss being home by Monday morning. No drama, so far.

The drama started when they decided to haul this guy off the plane anyway, without taking the more reasonable step of continuing to raise the offer for anyone else who might volunteer.

We haven't heard that the passenger was unruly or belligerent before they reached this point. As far as we know (pending any details to follow), he was perfectly happy to sit in his seat and enjoy the flight until then. Did he go overboard, with shouting or threats when they insisted he get out of his seat? Maybe, but it doesn't matter. The airline had another option for dealing with it, and instead they lit the fuse for everything that followed.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by armchairpilot94116

Can you imagine Singapore Airlines doing this? Cathay Pacific? EVA air? Korean? Anyone (other then a fellow American airline).

I've flown on all of those carriers over they years and have operated into most of their bases.

I would suggest that if a convicted drug trafficker with documented anger management and psych issues became belligerent when told to deplane, well, he might not be treated with kid gloves.

[Matt48]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

Apparently his felony convictions for drug trafficking and his wife alerting the authorities about his toy-boy motel trysts with his young patient and office manager were big news in the local SDF area.

As the Louisville Courier-Journal put it in an article cited here earlier:

If being a passenger depended on being a model citizen, airlines would have gone out of business decades ago.

[J.O.]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

I've flown on all of those carriers over they years and have operated into most of their bases.

I would suggest that if a convicted drug trafficker with documented anger management and psych issues became belligerent when told to deplane, well, he might not be treated with kid gloves.

How exactly would any of the protagonists know the man's history? By the way, his history is completely irrelevant to what transpired.

[Matt48]

Originally Posted by ExXB

The way to get a volunteer is to keep raising the price, or change to cash rather than 'future travel' money. Or offer other incentives. Even if it cost them a couple of thousand, that would have been cheap compared to what this will cost them. An airline should never involuntary deny boarding to any paying passenger.

Money talks, it should never be dragged screaming and kicking down the aisle.

Another way is let them all know that nobody is going anywhere until the required deplaning happens, just let 'em stew.