Turkish Airlines cargo 747 crashes in Kyrgyzstan
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Toga failure
B744 Go around procedure :
" Go Around "
TOGA,Flap 20
+ CLIMB, Gear up
400', LNAV or HDG Sel
3000' ( or less depending on your SOP ), VNAV or FLCH set speed
Follow missed approach procedure for that runway
Auto pilot can be reengaged in stable conditions.
Problem 1
Normal pitch for go around on 4 engines is about 12.5 degrees ( 3 engines,10 degrees )
If the pitch is insufficient , aircraft may continue to sink and impact will follow .
Problem 2
If asymmetric condition occurs during the go around and not fully countered by rudder,
A/C will roll over and your time to impact is measured in seconds.
Also, if the autopilot was maintained prior to the go around, a failed engine still needs rudder application due to the AP kicking off.
Problem 3
If TOGA mode fails, a No-TOGA go around must be done. This needs practice and plenty of training.
Problem 4
Regardless of the altimeter setting, the GPWS would have alerted the crew with a " TOO LOW, Terrain " or other warning and this requires immediate MAX THRUST setting combined with 20 degree initial pitch up or even more ( PITCH LIMIT ANGLE ) reaction from the pilot and a check that the speed brakes are in .
The list goes on...
The key here is PILOT TRAINING ,COMPANY PROCEDURES, Crew CRM !
Far from blaiming anyone at this point, one can see all the trappings of a go around under
adverse weather conditions , Heavy landing weight, high elevation if unprepared.
The 747 is a dandy to fly but can be a handful with high controls loading if out of trim and poor thrust/ pitch management.
" Go Around "
TOGA,Flap 20
+ CLIMB, Gear up
400', LNAV or HDG Sel
3000' ( or less depending on your SOP ), VNAV or FLCH set speed
Follow missed approach procedure for that runway
Auto pilot can be reengaged in stable conditions.
Problem 1
Normal pitch for go around on 4 engines is about 12.5 degrees ( 3 engines,10 degrees )
If the pitch is insufficient , aircraft may continue to sink and impact will follow .
Problem 2
If asymmetric condition occurs during the go around and not fully countered by rudder,
A/C will roll over and your time to impact is measured in seconds.
Also, if the autopilot was maintained prior to the go around, a failed engine still needs rudder application due to the AP kicking off.
Problem 3
If TOGA mode fails, a No-TOGA go around must be done. This needs practice and plenty of training.
Problem 4
Regardless of the altimeter setting, the GPWS would have alerted the crew with a " TOO LOW, Terrain " or other warning and this requires immediate MAX THRUST setting combined with 20 degree initial pitch up or even more ( PITCH LIMIT ANGLE ) reaction from the pilot and a check that the speed brakes are in .
The list goes on...
The key here is PILOT TRAINING ,COMPANY PROCEDURES, Crew CRM !
Far from blaiming anyone at this point, one can see all the trappings of a go around under
adverse weather conditions , Heavy landing weight, high elevation if unprepared.
The 747 is a dandy to fly but can be a handful with high controls loading if out of trim and poor thrust/ pitch management.
I don't follow the discussion on TOGA in this accident. Certainly the investigators have seen the engines by now and know what power they were at when they hit the ground.
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Originally Posted by aviator17
....otherwise flare position will be maintained until first obstacle on extended runway centerline (crew may have disorientation due increase in power -false climbing sense?)
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I verified that the FR24 ADS-B position reporting was accurate by looking at the departure and the 13 Jan arrival into Bishkek.
I plotted the "additional data" FR24 released to augment the final approach. In addition, I adjusted the reported altitude up by 300 feet to account for the high pressure.
I plotted the "additional data" FR24 released to augment the final approach. In addition, I adjusted the reported altitude up by 300 feet to account for the high pressure.
I's an inevitable outgoings of transition from collective property to private property and then chaos for about 10 years of property and rights legal system change. There is now not only villages in close vicinity of safety grounds of airports, but whole settlements built on high pressure gas or oil pipes or under high voltage power lines, 4-store hotels built at the top of boat garages etc.
Last edited by Kulverstukas; 19th Jan 2017 at 11:46.
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Irregardless has been in use as a slang conflation of irrespective and regardless for some time now. The first printed record I can find is from Indiana in 1795. So I think it must be accepted that it is a word, in common use by North Americans to mean the same as its root words. Niminy piminy pedants find it offensive as they maintain that the negative initial consonant "irr" adds a further negative to "regardless" thus making a double negative, and so positive meaning. I feel that this is a purely academic objection, and prefer to go with Humpty Dumpty's argument in "Alice Through the Looking Glass". In any case, taking a pragmatic view, I believe that the word is sufficiently current now that its use is unremarkable, and certainly less likely to give rise to confusion than the widely accepted use of strings of initials and acronyms which infest this forum. FYI
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The distribution of the damage chart does not support a rapid climb and fall of the aircraft.
From east to west first houses are damaged - an indication that the 747 descended into the settlement, then they become destroyed - that's where they hit the ground, then there are more damaged houses - debris of the wreckage hitting and causing damage.
If it had climbed and the dived down, I would expect a spot with destroyed houses, and then damage in the direction of flight (Where pieces of the wreckage would keep moving).
Nic
From east to west first houses are damaged - an indication that the 747 descended into the settlement, then they become destroyed - that's where they hit the ground, then there are more damaged houses - debris of the wreckage hitting and causing damage.
If it had climbed and the dived down, I would expect a spot with destroyed houses, and then damage in the direction of flight (Where pieces of the wreckage would keep moving).
Nic
If you ignore the last two data points, and extrapolate the line of descent it is very consistent with the actual impact damage.
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If you arbitrarily ignore selected data points, you can prove just about any theory.
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What Merriam-Webster has to say about it:
Is irregardless a word?
Irregardless was popularized in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its increasingly widespread spoken use called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
Logically, irregardless means "regardless regardless."
Is irregardless a word?
Irregardless was popularized in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its increasingly widespread spoken use called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
Logically, irregardless means "regardless regardless."
I would suggest that areas in the straight line from runway should stay clear in a reasonable distance from an airport fence.
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The data points are selected to match reality, not the other way round.
I don't know what alternate universe you are selecting data from.
For clarity : I added red and yellow lines to image from lemme. red = extrapolated trajectory, yellow is impact damage recorded on the ground.
Reality is what the FDR and CVR will tell us.
Until then, everything is speculation.
Until then, everything is speculation.
I'm not one to ignore the FDR or CVR as it is a source of facts, but neither do I ignore the condition of the wreckage which is immediately before my eyes. It seems the more we rely on the recorders for answers the more likely that one of them is missing or damaged.
In discussion boards like PPrune there would be nothing to discuss for months following a prang if we were to await what gets released from the black boxes.
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lemme,
In your article posted here:
Satcom Guru: TK6491 747-400F MyCargo/ACT Airlines, Manas Airport (FRU/UCFM) in Bishkek
You seem to show the approach plates and cite the minimums (minima for them grammer police
) for runway 08. Is this intentional? The rest of the discussion reflects an approach to runway 26.
In your article posted here:
Satcom Guru: TK6491 747-400F MyCargo/ACT Airlines, Manas Airport (FRU/UCFM) in Bishkek
You seem to show the approach plates and cite the minimums (minima for them grammer police
) for runway 08. Is this intentional? The rest of the discussion reflects an approach to runway 26.
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Anybody know a 747 with installed AoA indicator or new A350 style thrust indicator? So if they were tracking rwy 08 dme it could possible give a false GS. Again this aircraft doesn't track back course and cannot track LNAV except localizer. Must handfly with marker altitude course track control.
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What Merriam-Webster has to say about it:
Is irregardless a word?
Irregardless was popularized in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its increasingly widespread spoken use called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
Logically, irregardless means "regardless regardless."
Is irregardless a word?
Irregardless was popularized in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its increasingly widespread spoken use called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
Logically, irregardless means "regardless regardless."
The wreckage state and layout appears to be very similar to the 2010 Afriqiyah Tripoli accident. There it was a late go-around in low visibility coupled with an undershoot, an overshoot would produce same result.