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Turkish Airlines cargo 747 crashes in Kyrgyzstan

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Turkish Airlines cargo 747 crashes in Kyrgyzstan

Old 17th Jan 2017, 22:39
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Herod,

Correct, it is possible to intercept a false lobe.
However, correct and false lobe will still have the same touchdown point.
You can intercept an ILS from above on B744 in a safe way. Let's face it, we all have have to do this from time to time. Doing it correctly though must be trained and demonstrated, and it potential dangers explained and shown. And remember: approach not safe and sound? GO AROUND.
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Old 17th Jan 2017, 22:54
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango View Post
act700, I understand and agree with you up to a point. However, GA's are not all that frequent. So one may ponder whether said Captain had, in those 800 hours on the B744, ever experienced a GA and (again specifically on the B744) what sort of training for such an event had the airline given him?
"General statistics

Before detailing the results of the survey, the BEA estimated the number of go-arounds performed by a pilot during his/her career, based on the figures communicated by Air France and those supplied by the main European airports. In general, these showed:

� Between 2 and 4 go-arounds per one thousand flights are recorded each year
� A medium-haul flight crew performs on average one go-around a year
A long-haul flight crew performs on average one go-around every 5 to 10 years
."

https://www.bea.aero/etudes/asaga/asaga.study.pdf

Last edited by CaptainMongo; 17th Jan 2017 at 23:08.
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Old 17th Jan 2017, 23:05
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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And remember: approach not safe and sound? GO AROUND.
Exactly, as a young, soon to be RAF trainee pilot my then girl friends father, an ex-WWII Wellington pilot said - if you remember nothing else, remember this ....."When in doubt lash out" Power, pitch, mixture, carb heat, flaps, everything forward for speed. Concept still relevant despite being a 747
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Old 17th Jan 2017, 23:19
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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False Glideslope

Not suggesting this was the cause of this accident, however mention of glideslope capture from above rattled around in my brain recalling a safety warning published a couple of years ago which I have managed to find: Unexpected autopilot behaviour on ILS approach when intercepting the glide path from above based on a 2013 event at Eindhoven ( Pitch Up Upsets due to ILS false Glide Slopes ).

Both worth a read.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 02:14
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Hotel Tango, again, I do not buy or accept that line of reasoning! If you are qualified on type, irregardless of hours, you should be able to perform any normal maneuver on that type.

"act700, I understand and agree with you up to a point. However, GA's are not all that frequent. So one may ponder whether said Captain had, in those 800 hours on the B744, ever experienced a GA and (again specifically on the B744) what sort of training for such an event had the airline given him"
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 02:23
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Captainmongo:----

Ok but we do maybe 6 or more missed approaches/go arounds from various situations each year in the Simulator under varying conditions. We have done for 20 years now so I'd suggest that over that time I've done 120 in the Sim and maybe another 15 in the actual Aircraft.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 07:15
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Is it possible they decided to throw away the approach at a height of around 2000ft, by arresting the descent, but somehow the auto throttle didn't wake up? Would that explain the 'long drift' down the runway and, having run out of airspeed, result in a stall and crash?
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 07:28
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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If they were attempting an auto land, according to the post contributions their speed should have been circa 150/160 kts but one post commented according to "data" their speed was 185kts? What would be their GA performance at known weight with anti ice ON?
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 08:26
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
If they were attempting an auto land, according to the post contributions their speed should have been circa 150/160 kts but one post commented according to "data" their speed was 185kts?
The aforementioned data doesn't include either TAS or IAS. Groundspeed over the threshold was around 176 kts, surface wind negligible.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 15:24
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by act700 View Post
Don't forget your roots, all you xx-thousand hour gods...you too were 'low time on type' at some point...and somehow it all worked out, right?
I just don't buy this argument-besides, 800+ on type is more than enough to know one's way around.

But none of that really matters until some competent authority hints at what went wrong here.



Holy crap, I haven't been on here in forever!! Do I not have a life anymore??

Could not agree more.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 16:14
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SMT Member View Post
Is it possible they decided to throw away the approach at a height of around 2000ft, by arresting the descent, but somehow the auto throttle didn't wake up? Would that explain the 'long drift' down the runway and, having run out of airspeed, result in a stall and crash?
If the autotrottle did not wake up then the pilots were asleep also. Every aircraft I have ever flown be it Airbus, Douglas, Boeing, Lockheed you straighten out your throttle arm as the first thing on a GA. Not a terribly difficult thing to do.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 16:45
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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If you are qualified on type, irregardless of hours, you should be able to perform any normal maneuver on that type.
Sorry, I disagree! The key word is "qualified". How "qualified" one is can arguably depend a great deal on training received on the type and how proficient the country's regulatory authority is.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 17:38
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 17:40
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Second recorder was found today.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 17:43
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Kulverstukas

Your contributions are always excellent. However, in this case my Russian skills fail me.

Could you please specify exactly what the above chart is supposed to be? I have my suspicions but dare not show my ignorance about these things....
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 17:55
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It's the damage zone on the blueprint of this tiny house village. Violet means buildings on this patch are damaged (and with cut-off roofs), red - totally destroyed.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 17:58
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PS: Grim pun is that this village name is "Aeroflot garden-house community"
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 18:00
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks as always Kulverstukas.

Looks like the approach pictured above is to runway 8. You can see the striped building with the marker beacon antenna in the foreground, it was in one of your earlier photos of the wreckage.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 18:19
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PS: Grim pun is that this village name is "Aeroflot garden-house community"
Kulverstukas:

I don't want to derail this important thread, but I've travelled widely in the FSU, though not to Bishkek. I've never heard of such a community before. Does this suggest that the people in this community worked at the airport?
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 18:45
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
Kulverstukas:

I don't want to derail this important thread, but I've travelled widely in the FSU, though not to Bishkek. I've never heard of such a community before. Does this suggest that the people in this community worked at the airport?
It's not country-wide, it's usually local community. Possibly, in USSR time this patches was provided for airport workers (see, it's just 400 sq.m each) for growing fruits and vegetables. Usually it was in form of non-pofit cooperative. I think that if you put "aeroflot village" in google map you will find a thousands of them.
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