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Heart Attack during taxi

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Heart Attack during taxi

Old 3rd Dec 2016, 04:13
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Heart Attack during taxi

In case you missed it:

Airliner pilot suffers heart attack at Glasgow Airport - BBC News

tl; dr;

Dutch pilot has heart attack while leaving the gate at Glasgow ...
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 04:26
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Close call?

Could have been much worse if PF and at rotation...
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 05:57
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That's why there's two Pilots DM.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 11:25
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Well, yes but...

Having the PF release the stick / clutch it tightly at 50ft is going to tax the most capable pilot.

I think "much worse" is probably the right term here. Even if the FO manages to get on top of the situation instantly, it's a good few minutes before the a/c is back on the ground and the Captain can receive medical attention !
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 11:51
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Wonder if it is an extraordinary circumstance that the flight was subsequently cancelled. To me the answer is obvious but perhaps not to bottom-feeding scum.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 12:30
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Obvious? I know O'Leary would like to disagree but you still need two pilots to operate a flight.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 13:05
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A regular practice item in the sim - and one of the key reasons for the 60/70/80 kts etc call during the takeoff roll.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 13:11
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GC got there first, but What is a regular practice item? And how do those speed calls impact on an incapacitation scenario >80kts?

The co-pilot of the plane, which had 128 people on board, took the aircraft back to the gate.

I wonder how he did that. Where was the a/c when it stopped? Does the KLM have tillers both sides? Did, OMG, the F/O dare to slip into the LHS, show initiative and risk lack of insurance by taxi-ing the a/c? Was it still on the tug, or tug returned?

What would you do, as an F/O, if it happened during takeoff roll?
If between 80-V1 would you Go or Stop?
If you stopped would you clear the runway if you could, or block it?
Have you been trained to RTO from RHS; those that are captain only airlines?
Has this scenario ever been discussed in training?
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 15:26
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I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi (sic) off the runway instead of stopping asap and calling for a nurse/doctor - Just to save a bit of inconvenience? I hope not... If I was the Captain - or a friend or relative of his I wouldn't be thanking you for that, I can assure you.

How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 15:32
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I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi
Are you serious, stop on the runway, then what, blow a slide and slide him down? Taxi to the gate, call for a doctor, ask CC to assist if doc onboard or AED onboard, that is the quickest option. If an FO can't do that they should not be in the seat.


clutch it tightly at 50ft is going to tax the most capable pilot.
He had a heart attack, he did not decide to kill himself and everyone onboard.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 15:33
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@RAT
I would hope you would do what you briefed.

My brief is that either of us can call STOP for anything up to 80kts and we will only abort between 80 and V1 for significant items including Engine Fire / Failure (confirmed with 2 parameters), smoke, blocked controls / runway, pilot incapacitation, any master warning (this is a type which suppresses non-urgent messages between 60 kts and 400') or anything else that will stop us safely getting in to the air.

Short answer - yes I would reject.

It has come up in the sim - and I don't recall being in an operator where a RHS RTO has not come up (I've only ever operated where if RHS is PF then they have control throughout the takeoff)
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 15:59
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How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!

It is when the 'tick in the box' incap exercise starts in the air during gear or flaps up and finishes when PM call the CC's.

I would hope you would do what you briefed.
It has come up in the sim - and I don't recall being in an operator where a RHS RTO has not come up (I've only ever operated where if RHS is PF then they have control throughout the takeoff)


And therein lies the rub. I've never worked for an airline where RHS can call stop or action an RTO. Hence it is not briefed. I've worked for only 1 company with RHS tillers. I've only worked for 1 enlightened company where the incap was during takeoff roll and RHS made an RTO and then stayed on the runway as no tiller. There was never ending discussion whether they were allowed to take a hi-speed exit using rudder pedal only. It is possible as I used to demo on LT, as an extra. I used to let F/O's taxi with rudder pedal only just to see what radius the a/c could make. Surely it's part of learning how to control an a/c, but evidently not when suggested to HOT as an LT syllabus item.
The debate whether to stop on runway or vacate will rage on for pages, I'm sure.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 20:10
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The debate whether to stop on runway or vacate will rage on for pages, I'm sure
Vacate. End of page?

Last edited by FlightDetent; 3rd Dec 2016 at 21:18. Reason: Confused Chronus, and did not inted to
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 20:34
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent
Vacate. End of page?
Not just yet. Bound to raise questions such as, when was his last medical, was he on any kind of pills, did he suffer with headaches, did the airline know anything about it, was there any kind of medical history, was he becoming short tempered, how many miles did he cycle to work, what about the adequacy of medical examinations...., is it a good scare me story, the list goes on.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 21:06
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Chronus, I took it to mean that, in the sim, the exercise for incapacitation usually stops once the runway is vacated.

As for the comments about clutching the controls tightly, I wouldn't know if a heart attack would cause you to seize or relax but I remember reading about one from the 70s-80s where one of the pilots had a seizure. This caused major control difficulties on final approach as one of his legs seized in the extended position on a rudder pedal. Think it was in Salt Lake City.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 21:28
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Apologies for the misunderstanding and thanks for the clarification clark y. You have reminded me of last year`s LEA B200 crash out of Stapleford. The AAIB concluded with the possibility that the pilot had a coronary and the pilot assistant was not, for reasons unknown unable to intervene in time. That particular accident occurred within a couple of minutes after t/o.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 21:32
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All this stuff about vacating the runway or not is just hypothetical. The article states they were taxiing to the runway..
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 22:15
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Originally Posted by RAT 5
How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!

It is when the 'tick in the box' incap exercise starts in the air during gear or flaps up and finishes when PM call the CC's.

I would hope you would do what you briefed.
It has come up in the sim - and I don't recall being in an operator where a RHS RTO has not come up (I've only ever operated where if RHS is PF then they have control throughout the takeoff)


And therein lies the rub. I've never worked for an airline where RHS can call stop or action an RTO. Hence it is not briefed. I've worked for only 1 company with RHS tillers. I've only worked for 1 enlightened company where the incap was during takeoff roll and RHS made an RTO and then stayed on the runway as no tiller. There was never ending discussion whether they were allowed to take a hi-speed exit using rudder pedal only. It is possible as I used to demo on LT, as an extra. I used to let F/O's taxi with rudder pedal only just to see what radius the a/c could make. Surely it's part of learning how to control an a/c, but evidently not when suggested to HOT as an LT syllabus item.
The debate whether to stop on runway or vacate will rage on for pages, I'm sure.
Hi RAT

I'm sure most FOs today still have common sense, surely you hadn't forgotten this, in the front of FCOMs QRHs it states that they can't cover every possible scenario.

As for using high speed taxi ways with the tiller, some Manuela state that you don't use the tiller about 30kts, high speed taxi ways can be used at 60kts.

Differential braking??


Good luck!!
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 23:27
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Yes, KLM aircraft also have tillers on the right side, and the FO's taxi themselves when PF. They practice incapacitation during the takeoff roll.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 23:50
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Taxi to the gate, call for a doctor, ask CC to assist if doc onboard or AED onboard, that is the quickest option. If an FO can't do that they should not be in the seat.
Wot, at Heathrow? Sloppy Joe, I would hate to be you or your conscience if your Capt pegged it under the circumstances suggested and you did this. On the other hand I would LOVE to be your prosecuting lawyer. I would crucify you for that. If I had sold you life insurance I'd withdraw that instantly, for fear of what you'd do when you finally woke up to reality...
Jeez! Talk about the milk of human kindness - or not.
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