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China Southern A380 Prang LAX

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China Southern A380 Prang LAX

Old 11th Nov 2016, 22:56
  #21 (permalink)  

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If only those 9 seconds could relieve you of the agony ...
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 00:42
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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@flightDetent:

did it ever occur to you that FCOM is customised? ie different airlines different sops...Some airlines disregards Airbus sops completely and rewrites the procedures. But those have mature pilots and great Flight Ops cultures. It actually makes sense: most of the aircraft manufactures sops are not really thought with safety in mind and, you should know that by now.

The A 320 is especially fitting in the above sentence: for many reasons I have no time to explains the philosophy of SOPS for the A320 were thoughts in a period of crazy mentality that was dominating the airbus certification division in the mid 80s.

Safety was a side benefit of a concept that was trying to extrapolate the pilot from his job.

So: many companies many sops.

Going back to the topic, there is no evidence that doing the after start checklist after the hand signal would add some layers of confort to the safety of the ground crew: it is like saying that we should not be taking off if it is not CAVOK.

So, as you might start to discover there is no advantage whatsoever: by applying the same logic that you bring forward with the checklist after the hand signal, we should never do flight control checks during taxi and, god forbid, Single Engine Taxi Out. Way too dangerous...

More does not necessarily mean an improvement in safety.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 00:59
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Absolute rubbish.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 03:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Agree Bloggsy, absolute rubbish.

Rule #1 after start, DON'T RUN INTO ANYTHING, and that includes the poor bloody Engineer....or his Tug.

KISS method.

These things aren't just put in their to inconvience Pilots, they are long established procedures learnt from previous cock ups......to try and ensure these silly mistakes don't KILL ANYONE.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 04:50
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Obviously no Taxi camera
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 05:51
  #26 (permalink)  
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When dinosaurs ruled the earth and I was a 727 FE, we delayed the After Start Checklist until the wave-off because that's when we pressurized the hydros. Didn't want anyone near the nose wheel.

Now that I'm a captain, my goal is simple: I want to get a letter in my file for being too slow off the gate....
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 06:06
  #27 (permalink)  
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by applying the same logic that you bring forward with the checklist after the hand signal, we should never do flight control checks during taxi and, god forbid, Single Engine Taxi Out. Way too dangerous...
I don't do either. Not on departure, anyway.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 10:06
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Bit worrying that some people here genuinely ask "why do the checklist after the actions? What's wrong with doing the checklist first?"
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 10:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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My airlines SOPs are to wait to see ground equipment/crew clear, complete the After Start Checklist then request taxi. We're "habituated" to hearing "After Start Checklist complete" followed by PM call for taxi.

Clearly under these circumstances, calling for the After Start Checklist before clearing the ground crew is a big no-no, it's all too easy for PF/PM to default to motor action and request/call for taxi too soon. Throw in some fatigue, slots, delay and/or distractions into the mix while you're at it.

If I'm asked for the checklist before the ground crew are clear... "standby". We all know what our SOPs are, and quite frankly I find it baffling to try and save few seconds ANYWHERE when you have people near running engines.

As with most of these SOP discussions it's entirely academic to most line pilots. Someone's crunching the numbers on which method is safer, the rest is anecdotal. We're flying their planes, we follow their SOPs and take the paycheck at the end of the month
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 10:11
  #30 (permalink)  
A4

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I think the comparisons about taking off in CAVOK and not doing control checks whilst taxiing are not valid. When you have personnel working out of sight below the aircraft, you need to make damn sure they're NOT there anymore when you release the parking brake - there's a real chance you can hit something (unlike control checks on a taxiway or a CAVOK departure). One Engine Taxi Departure is fine - just be disciplined and don't rush it. If there's a chance it will be tight timewise - don't do it - simple!

If you're both "heads in" doing the afterstarts you can't easily see what's disappeared outside - did you see the tug+bar+man+pin or not?

At least one instance in the U.K. of a 737 taxiing with the tow bar attached but tug and man clear......how that happened is beyond me.......

I like a stress free day out and keep things straightforward. Chill out - slow down......
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 10:13
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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At least one instance in the U.K. of a 737 taxiing with the tow bar attached but tug and man clear......how that happened is beyond me.......
I've had the ground crew disconnect, wave me the pin then hurriedly signal to hold position as we both notice the tow bar wasn't where it should have been, i.e. attached to the nosegear!
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 11:35
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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The prevailing assumption in this thread is that the China Southern crew taxied into the tug whilst it was still connected. But do we know for sure? What if the tow-bar failed first and the A380 rolled forward into the tug due to momentum?
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 11:48
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I hope the tug driver got away unscathed. Anyone know his/her status?

I also doubt the towbar bent itself nearly 180 degrees (picture in post 7), I suspect a few hundred tonnes of aircraft did that.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 12:12
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ACMS
I've heard several times in YMML ATC begging the crew to look out the window and wave off the ground crew who were trying to show the pin. Depending on location ATC can't issue a taxi clearance until the Tug reports clear, the Tug couldn't report clear until the wave off.

The cockpit crew just didn't get it and they sat there for 5 mins until they worked it out.

Obviously they would have happily taxied off without checking the ground crew were clear......luckily YMML local procedures saved the day........now in LAX?

Obviously they don't always look outside......
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about, and are condescending as well.

I am a Westerner working for a major Chinese airline - not this one. In China, the procedure is to do the After Start checklist, make the taxi call, and then wave the ground crew goodbye before starting the taxi. They do not wave off the ground crew before the taxi call. They do not taxi until they have a wave off from the ground crew. There is no "Ground Crew.... Clear" call in the After Start checklist. Perfectly safe, just different to my former airlines.

Just because you do things one particular way doesn't mean it is the best or even the only way of doing things.

Whether you do the After Start checklist before or after waving at the ground crew is irrelevant and a red herring. Actually checking clear to taxi is vital for any airline and any crew, and mistakes have been made before by all nationalities. Perhaps this thread could focus on aviation safety issues, without the lecturing.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 13:09
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flare Armed
Whether you do the After Start checklist before or after waving at the ground crew is irrelevant and a red herring.
Again, absolute rubbish! I cannot believe that some of you jokers think it doesn't matter what order you do this procedure in.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 13:41
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I think that, if you want to be taken seriously, you should moderate your language.

I do whatever the company SOP says.
For instance, no difficulty with running the checklist and holding at: Groundcrew - Clear.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 13:58
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In addition to what FlareArmed2 said, in China you can't get a wave off from the ground crew before you start to taxi, because they simply won't wave back before you have your taxi light on and start moving.
Hence, this procedure works only this way.
With my seventh operator here, and none of them had a procedure to get the wave before doing the checklist.
Also, as already said, in the Airbus world it is perfectly acceptable to do that checklist while taxiing.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 14:27
  #38 (permalink)  

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REMAX11: Wrong target mate, you're speaking to somebody who's uploaded the updates onto EFBs for several years, and helped derive a way to modify the factory pdf's before FCOMs become data driven. I wrote OEM Airbus in that first post for a reason.

As for the rest of your post, I look at it and my brain pulls the image of captain's face changing one deep winter night 2003, as the redcap screamed through the headset under attack by the nosewheel. The PTT used to obtain the taxi clearance has my fingerprints on it. Until today I do not know what we'd done differently or wrongly.

Thus later I had easily adhered to company SOPs to do C/L only after the wave off, and today happily do the same because my employer is reasonably smart not to change the Airbus OEM book too much. For that very same reason I do make F/CTL checks during taxi and personal stats for SE taxi stands at 92% in, 0,05 out this season.

Feel free to shoot the second round.

Basil: You seem to support his stance and think it matters then? Count me in.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 12th Nov 2016 at 17:09.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 14:54
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The prevailing assumption in this thread is that the China Southern crew taxied into the tug whilst it was still connected. But do we know for sure? What if the tow-bar failed first and the A380 rolled forward into the tug due to momentum?
But nobody seems to want to entertain that idea. They prefer to want to argue who has got the bigger, ehm, "tow bar"!
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 16:51
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone's SOP's call for hitting the towbar? Probably not. So there was probably a breakdown in communication/SOP somewhere.
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