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Does ALPA oppose upset recovery training

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Does ALPA oppose upset recovery training

Old 9th Sep 2016, 12:22
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vapilot2004 - EASA is very much in favour of 'stall training', which was made clear in NPA 2015-12 'Upset Prevention and Recovery Training' for FSTDs. NPA 2015-13 'Loss of control prevention and recovery training' mandates on-aircraft UPRT from April 2018 for ab-initio ATPLs.

F-16GUY - you are absolutely correct that 'Basic skills are very much transferrable'; UPRT schools teach techniques that are mostly independent of airframe type, and where there are material differences then they get highlighted and understood. Whilst there are clear differences between a swept wing airliner with underslung jet engines and a straight wing piston, any approach to stall will always require a reduction in alpha.

markkal - I want to highlight that spin training - recovering from fully developed spins - is NOT going to be mandated by the FAA or EASA. Aside from the fact that getting into a spin in an airliner is going to end badly, the training focus is very much on avoidance in the first instance and then recovery from the incipient spin only.
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Old 9th Sep 2016, 12:54
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Airline pilots are not poorly paid compared to the average income. Surely they can afford to pay for a few hours with an instructor and an aerobatic aircraft each year to maintain some currency even if the company won't pay for such training. Every other profession requires their practitioners to remain current with updated legislation, safety and training, frequently at their own expense. Why are (some) commercial pilots not keen to keep their skills as polished as possible?

Surely the aim is to be better than just holding the minimum skill set necessary to conduct a safe flight in benign conditions. Recovery from unusual attitudes and spin recovery was (and still should be) a vital part of basic flight training and recurrancy checks. Big aircraft can get into just the same attitudes as a smaller aircraft and the same techniques should assist in recovery, if possible without ripping the airframe apart.
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Old 9th Sep 2016, 13:02
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Greeners you are right, developped spin training is not mandared by EASA, however there are a number of schools offering this "extension" in their training, I believe APS in the US is one of them, which cooperates with ICATEE, under the impetus of Sunjoo Advani, ICATEE being in the EASA board drafting the upcoming regulation.

Various schools using aporopriate aircraft are including spin training in their packages for UPRT. It may well be a commercial move, and I fully agree that an airliner will probably never be able to recover from a spin in the first place.

However, it is unlikely that any aircraft will end up in a spin or an aggravated oscillatory stall unless crews let an unstable condition degenerate.

In addition to this by experiencing and being able to tame the fully developped spin, is undoubtedly a great confidence building maneuver,it takes time and should be done in stages, but I can assure you does marvels in improving anyone's skills.

It will enable anyone flying at the back edge of the flying envelope to act without stress with added finesse and confidence, and will change the way one handles slow flight.
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Old 9th Sep 2016, 14:22
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markkal - there is a marked difference between what the EASA UPRT regulations mandate and what I personally would view as being the best possible training! At Ultimate High we give UPRT students the option to experience fully developed spins for exactly the reasons you give in your note. IMO it could *never* be made mandatory as a significant proportion of our delegates are uncomfortable with more extreme Unusual Positions and would probably refuse to experience a full spin. And yes, I am including experienced commercial pilots here...

Sunjoo did a great job of steering ICAATEE (which was set up by the RAeS on the same day that AF447 flew into the South Atlantic) and the work of that body to influence regulators is now largely done and complete. I'm part of the EASA Rule making group that you refer to (officially RMT .0581) along with representatives from the other main UPRT schools, APS and ECAIR Aviation, and we're hoping to get the details and guidance published as soon as possible.

On the slow flight point, it's worth highlighting that a LOT of time is spent specifically focussing on the challenges associated with this phase of flight.

OK465 - you ask a good question. Because the teaching is about recognising the situation and applying the correct recovery technique, it should not make any difference on which platform this is demonstrated. If the delegate can do it on a T67, they should be able to do it on an A320 or B737.
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Old 9th Sep 2016, 22:38
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These videos are from1997,but still relevant,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Zy_rl8WuM
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Old 9th Sep 2016, 23:46
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Originally Posted by AA587
"if the first officer had stopped making additional inputs, the aircraft would have stabilized". Contributing to these rudder pedal inputs were characteristics of the Airbus A300-600 sensitive rudder system design and elements of the American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Training Program.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...32479545,d.ZGg
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Old 10th Sep 2016, 00:43
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" The government's own Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge says "any combination of flight control usage [below the maneuvering speed], including full deflection of the controls ... should not create an excessive air load."

From By-the-Book Pilot to Fall Guy - latimes

http://m.rockawave.com/news/2006-04-...l#.V9NXqTVrPM8

http://usread.com/flight587/Shame/default.html
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Old 10th Sep 2016, 03:24
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vapilot2004 - EASA is very much in favour of 'stall training', which was made clear in NPA 2015-12 'Upset Prevention and Recovery Training' for FSTDs. NPA 2015-13 'Loss of control prevention and recovery training' mandates on-aircraft UPRT from April 2018 for ab-initio ATPLs.
Greeners - my post was misleading in that I did not say EASA was opposed to "full stall training, which they in fact are.
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Old 10th Sep 2016, 09:25
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How would fly by wire cope with a pilot inputting his interpretation of the situation?
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Old 10th Sep 2016, 12:51
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Originally Posted by effortless
How would fly by wire cope with a pilot inputting his interpretation of the situation?
On the Airbus, FBW would cope like just about any other aircraft as the protections would most likely not be available if the aircraft was stalled - the only difference being sidesticks offer no tactile/haptic feedback relating to the condition.
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