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Positive climb - flaps up

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Positive climb - flaps up

Old 8th Mar 2016, 18:07
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Originally Posted by Ozlander1 View Post
Seems like they were moved to be the same as the King Airs or something.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved.
Can't speak for the Baron but I seem to recall that the first Bonanza V-tails produced in late 1940s had identical and adjacent levers for gear and flaps. The FAA noticed the remarkable number of gear-up landings and ordered a redesign with flap shape for one function and a round wheel for the other.

Even that doesn't save a dozy/tired/distracted pilot. After a three-hour trip in constant turbulence I arrived at Lydd with two very distressed children in the back. After two goarounds due to slower circuit traffic I asked ATC for priority. Being distracted by more howls and vomiting I failed to lower the gear until an alert controller warned me halfway down finals.

Still grateful for that warning, 30+ years later. Thanks again ...
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 19:01
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In one of Ernest K.Gann`s books, during the take-off roll in a DC2(this was a really long time ago) the captain told his
seemingly depressed co-pilot to "cheer up" with unintended consequences.
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 20:15
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The instruction "Takeoff power" also had disastrous consequences once when the co-pilot took it off. A 4 engine prop plane in the 50s.
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 20:32
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Similar and happened on a line flight. And this relates a little to modern cadets not knowing pitch/power. On finals I noticed the speed was 'going to decay' because the power was too low after ending flap was achieved. I (later realised was a mistake) called power, because that was the error. Instinctively, without looking, the f/o reduced power. Ouch. I learnt something. Do not trust they know what you mean. However, the next time, I called "more power", and we leapt into the sky and just avoided a GA. You can't win.

Last edited by RAT 5; 9th Mar 2016 at 09:11.
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 22:51
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In a previous life we called "Selected, 3 Reds". No reds? Put it back then move the correct lever (you idiot)!
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 22:53
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Originally Posted by Aluminium shuffler View Post
With a V1 engine failure, certainly, but I doubt it in normal ops. It might have an influence on noise monitoring, and would have a marginal fuel penalty and delay rapid climb based short cuts of the SID, but I don't think it'd be a problem to delay the gear until 400' in normal operations.
Well you don't know when the engine is going to fail do you? It's not like it's a v1 cut or nothing, it could go at any time. So you get the thing cleaned up so you have as much performance as you can in case anything bad happens.
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 12:02
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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I don't disagree, Aero. There is no reason you couldn't stick with gear up as soon as airborne with a before Vr failure. If it fails after Vr, then you already have a small advantage over a V1 failure, and could have the gear retraction as an immediate memory item. But for normal ops, there is plenty of performance to leave the gear down.

The trouble is that it then starts opening multiple scenarios, their identification and procedures, so it's simpler to stick to immediate retraction at all times.. That's the problem with writing SOPs - balancing probabilities and risks.
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 13:21
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 13:43
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Many moons ago and a 707 struggling to climb out of Lusaka; damned thing just wouldn't accelerate.
Three on the flight deck of course and a 4th pair of eyes on a jumpseat - no one seemed to be able to find the reason.
That is until the 4th pair of eyes noticed the gear was still down.
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 15:49
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes View Post
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels.
Actually, that was Fokker's own procedure, not something devised by Loganair - we employed it in Air UK
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 17:27
  #71 (permalink)  

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Hello 019. Didn't we change it after the Manchester accident? The grey cells aren't as agile as they used to be, and it's twenty-seven years since I last flew Mr Fokker's masterpiece. Edit. Grey cells fired up. I think we did retain the procedure; at least until I left the fleet.

Last edited by Herod; 9th Mar 2016 at 17:36. Reason: Memory regained.
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 20:45
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
And I think this is the procedure on most other large aircraft as well. Another reason cited below is that you might move the flaps the wrong way out of habit if you tried to extend them to get a balloon effect and lower the stall speed.

For almost thirty years windshear procedures in U.S. training have derived from the wisdom in Advisory Circular 00-54. Every training manual I've encountered since the AC was published in 1988 seems to have verbiage from this publication (e.g. the deviations of 15 knots, 500 feet per minute VS or 5 degrees of pitch definitions of windshear). I'm sure there is a corresponding ICAO document somewhere.

The philosophy of maintaining configuration until out of the shear is explained on page 47 of the FAA document:

CONFIGURATION

Maintain flap and gear position until
terrain clearance is assured.

Although a small performance increase is
available after landing gear retraction,
initial performance degradation
may occur when landing gear doors open
for retraction.

While extending flaps
during a recovery after liftoff may
result in a performance benefit, it is
not a recommended technique because:

1) Accidentally retracting flaps
(the usual direction of movement)
has a large adverse impact
on performance.

2) If landing gear retraction had
been initiated prior to recognition
of the encounter, extending
flaps beyond a takeoff
flap setting might result in a
continuous warning horn which
distracts the crew.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...ar/AC00-54.pdf
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 23:29
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AN extra set of eyes

Us: Tower: WoundedBird1 Outer Marker
Tower: WoundedBird1 Cleared to land. CFR in position
Us: Please call "Check Gear" at 2 miles
Tower: wilco
...never hurts to ask :-)
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 23:41
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Herod from Nineteen - check your PMs sir!
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 07:52
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Long time ago, a Beech model 18 pilot said "That danged horn was making so much noise I couldn't hear myself think".
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 16:36
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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OZL
Yep I think manufactures have over done warnings. If you ever get into large hail and associated turbulence, the noise does make it very hard to think. Takes marked discipline to overcome this human trait. As for Gear up Flaps Up again, muscle memory can over rule the thinking memory as muscle memory is actioned without/ before conscious thought.
Whilst I once put my hands on the flap leaver & lifted it up, instead of the speed brakes in the edge of a thunderstorm I did not actually move the lever as my thinking process caught up just in time.
So as a human I have great sympathy for this pilot who's thought process under stress (Hadn't flown for a while) reacted ahead of their thinking process.
I should say that it takes exposure to stressors to be able to mitigate this type of error, which only comes with experience.
These things happen, what more can I say, apart from even the automatics sometimes "do their own thing"
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 19:15
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On the flight global page that the original link points to it says

Under European certification specifications the aircraft’s configuration – other than the position of its landing-gear – must not be changed until it has reached at least 400ft.

What's that all about then? I've never seen any certification specifications that give any such restriction except OEI. Am I missing something?
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 04:19
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
I'd be more worried about the aircraft touching down again with the gear selected up
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 09:00
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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@GlenQuagmire

Really? You're not familiar with a minimum acceleration altitude for normal ops? Or did you just think that was a company SOP?
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 12:11
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well aware of the certification requirements OEI and some types (B737 for example) have it in the flight manual but other types don't (not seen it on a bombardier aircraft for instance) and I have never seen it as a certification requirement. I'm asking where the certification requirements are that mandate a minimum flap retraction altitude all engines operating - never seen it, never heard of it. Flap retraction is predicated on speed not height with a minimum height (not altitude) in the event of an engine failure.
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