Positive climb - flaps up
Originally Posted by Ozlander1
Seems like they were moved to be the same as the King Airs or something.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved.
Even that doesn't save a dozy/tired/distracted pilot. After a three-hour trip in constant turbulence I arrived at Lydd with two very distressed children in the back. After two goarounds due to slower circuit traffic I asked ATC for priority. Being distracted by more howls and vomiting I failed to lower the gear until an alert controller warned me halfway down finals.
Still grateful for that warning, 30+ years later. Thanks again ...
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In one of Ernest K.Gann`s books, during the take-off roll in a DC2(this was a really long time ago) the captain told his
seemingly depressed co-pilot to "cheer up" with unintended consequences.
seemingly depressed co-pilot to "cheer up" with unintended consequences.
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Similar and happened on a line flight. And this relates a little to modern cadets not knowing pitch/power. On finals I noticed the speed was 'going to decay' because the power was too low after ending flap was achieved. I (later realised was a mistake) called power, because that was the error. Instinctively, without looking, the f/o reduced power. Ouch. I learnt something. Do not trust they know what you mean. However, the next time, I called "more power", and we leapt into the sky and just avoided a GA. You can't win.
Last edited by RAT 5; 9th Mar 2016 at 08:11.
Originally Posted by Aluminium shuffler
With a V1 engine failure, certainly, but I doubt it in normal ops. It might have an influence on noise monitoring, and would have a marginal fuel penalty and delay rapid climb based short cuts of the SID, but I don't think it'd be a problem to delay the gear until 400' in normal operations.
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I don't disagree, Aero. There is no reason you couldn't stick with gear up as soon as airborne with a before Vr failure. If it fails after Vr, then you already have a small advantage over a V1 failure, and could have the gear retraction as an immediate memory item. But for normal ops, there is plenty of performance to leave the gear down.
The trouble is that it then starts opening multiple scenarios, their identification and procedures, so it's simpler to stick to immediate retraction at all times.. That's the problem with writing SOPs - balancing probabilities and risks.
The trouble is that it then starts opening multiple scenarios, their identification and procedures, so it's simpler to stick to immediate retraction at all times.. That's the problem with writing SOPs - balancing probabilities and risks.
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
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Many moons ago and a 707 struggling to climb out of Lusaka; damned thing just wouldn't accelerate.
Three on the flight deck of course and a 4th pair of eyes on a jumpseat - no one seemed to be able to find the reason.
That is until the 4th pair of eyes noticed the gear was still down.
Three on the flight deck of course and a 4th pair of eyes on a jumpseat - no one seemed to be able to find the reason.
That is until the 4th pair of eyes noticed the gear was still down.
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Hello 019. Didn't we change it after the Manchester accident? The grey cells aren't as agile as they used to be, and it's twenty-seven years since I last flew Mr Fokker's masterpiece. Edit. Grey cells fired up. I think we did retain the procedure; at least until I left the fleet.
Last edited by Herod; 9th Mar 2016 at 16:36. Reason: Memory regained.
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
For almost thirty years windshear procedures in U.S. training have derived from the wisdom in Advisory Circular 00-54. Every training manual I've encountered since the AC was published in 1988 seems to have verbiage from this publication (e.g. the deviations of 15 knots, 500 feet per minute VS or 5 degrees of pitch definitions of windshear). I'm sure there is a corresponding ICAO document somewhere.
The philosophy of maintaining configuration until out of the shear is explained on page 47 of the FAA document:
CONFIGURATION
Maintain flap and gear position until
terrain clearance is assured.
Although a small performance increase is
available after landing gear retraction,
initial performance degradation
may occur when landing gear doors open
for retraction.
While extending flaps
during a recovery after liftoff may
result in a performance benefit, it is
not a recommended technique because:
1) Accidentally retracting flaps
(the usual direction of movement)
has a large adverse impact
on performance.
2) If landing gear retraction had
been initiated prior to recognition
of the encounter, extending
flaps beyond a takeoff
flap setting might result in a
continuous warning horn which
distracts the crew.
Maintain flap and gear position until
terrain clearance is assured.
Although a small performance increase is
available after landing gear retraction,
initial performance degradation
may occur when landing gear doors open
for retraction.
While extending flaps
during a recovery after liftoff may
result in a performance benefit, it is
not a recommended technique because:
1) Accidentally retracting flaps
(the usual direction of movement)
has a large adverse impact
on performance.
2) If landing gear retraction had
been initiated prior to recognition
of the encounter, extending
flaps beyond a takeoff
flap setting might result in a
continuous warning horn which
distracts the crew.
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AN extra set of eyes
Us: Tower: WoundedBird1 Outer Marker
Tower: WoundedBird1 Cleared to land. CFR in position
Us: Please call "Check Gear" at 2 miles
Tower: wilco
...never hurts to ask :-)
Tower: WoundedBird1 Cleared to land. CFR in position
Us: Please call "Check Gear" at 2 miles
Tower: wilco
...never hurts to ask :-)
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OZL
Yep I think manufactures have over done warnings. If you ever get into large hail and associated turbulence, the noise does make it very hard to think. Takes marked discipline to overcome this human trait. As for Gear up Flaps Up again, muscle memory can over rule the thinking memory as muscle memory is actioned without/ before conscious thought.
Whilst I once put my hands on the flap leaver & lifted it up, instead of the speed brakes in the edge of a thunderstorm I did not actually move the lever as my thinking process caught up just in time.
So as a human I have great sympathy for this pilot who's thought process under stress (Hadn't flown for a while) reacted ahead of their thinking process.
I should say that it takes exposure to stressors to be able to mitigate this type of error, which only comes with experience.
These things happen, what more can I say, apart from even the automatics sometimes "do their own thing"
Yep I think manufactures have over done warnings. If you ever get into large hail and associated turbulence, the noise does make it very hard to think. Takes marked discipline to overcome this human trait. As for Gear up Flaps Up again, muscle memory can over rule the thinking memory as muscle memory is actioned without/ before conscious thought.
Whilst I once put my hands on the flap leaver & lifted it up, instead of the speed brakes in the edge of a thunderstorm I did not actually move the lever as my thinking process caught up just in time.
So as a human I have great sympathy for this pilot who's thought process under stress (Hadn't flown for a while) reacted ahead of their thinking process.
I should say that it takes exposure to stressors to be able to mitigate this type of error, which only comes with experience.
These things happen, what more can I say, apart from even the automatics sometimes "do their own thing"
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On the flight global page that the original link points to it says
Under European certification specifications the aircraft’s configuration – other than the position of its landing-gear – must not be changed until it has reached at least 400ft.
What's that all about then? I've never seen any certification specifications that give any such restriction except OEI. Am I missing something?
Under European certification specifications the aircraft’s configuration – other than the position of its landing-gear – must not be changed until it has reached at least 400ft.
What's that all about then? I've never seen any certification specifications that give any such restriction except OEI. Am I missing something?
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
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well aware of the certification requirements OEI and some types (B737 for example) have it in the flight manual but other types don't (not seen it on a bombardier aircraft for instance) and I have never seen it as a certification requirement. I'm asking where the certification requirements are that mandate a minimum flap retraction altitude all engines operating - never seen it, never heard of it. Flap retraction is predicated on speed not height with a minimum height (not altitude) in the event of an engine failure.
