Positive climb - flaps up
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
An exhaustive PPRuNe discussion of the subject in an earlier thread:
http://www.pprune.org/questions/4925...ive-climb.html
One of my favorite comments from this earlier thread:
Read ze books and be wise. This year Boeing refers to "positive rate of climb" which most operators shortens to "positive rate". Positive climb is a statement of inferiority complex - we have to be different than the bloody yanks. Because we know better over here. Just like the "sharklets"
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
After landing yours truly retracts the flaps to clean from Full and 3 at once as per training.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a human factors issue and is rare but it does occasionally happen and can happen with an experienced or inexperienced pilot. Back in the 80's as a two striper on a 747 classic I called "positive climb" and the Captain with 28 years in the company called "flap up". I replied "gear up" paused, he confirmed and I raised the gear. Later the Captain could not believe he had said flap but fortunately the Flight Engineer told him in no uncertain terms he had.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels. Unfortunately on one touchdown the copilot selected the gear up and sod's law it was a crosswind and the squat switch was on the downwind main gear and the gear raised dinging both props.
Occasionally you get a pilot calling for gear up and the other pilot's hand goes towards the flap lever momentarily before self correcting. Seen it all but it is very rare that someone goes ahead and actually selects flap up instead of gear up. The beauty of having two pilots is one notices the error and normally stops it before it happens. But if an error can be made it will be made due fatigue, complacency, distraction.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels. Unfortunately on one touchdown the copilot selected the gear up and sod's law it was a crosswind and the squat switch was on the downwind main gear and the gear raised dinging both props.
Occasionally you get a pilot calling for gear up and the other pilot's hand goes towards the flap lever momentarily before self correcting. Seen it all but it is very rare that someone goes ahead and actually selects flap up instead of gear up. The beauty of having two pilots is one notices the error and normally stops it before it happens. But if an error can be made it will be made due fatigue, complacency, distraction.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Suninmyeyes: Small world. That was the accident I referred to in the post above yours. Location, Manchester. Reg G-OMAN iirc. I ferried it to Norwich for repair.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't see the difference. You call positive climb when you have a positive VS. Do you think this incident would have been avoided if they used "positive rate" instead of "positive climb"? Positive climb is a statement of a positive VS, nothing more nothing less. You still haven't explained how positive rate is any less arbitrary. Just some nonsensical ramblings about Boeings.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
positive rate vs positive climb
seriously guys, this is exactly what I hate in this profession done more and more by stupids who only learn procedures instead flying.
Yeah, even in cockpits many still discuss about where is the "comma" and what page exactly. Now the best pilot is the one who knows by heart all sops word by word, better than a monkey, not the only one who can still think by himself and fly a plane properly.
Thank you Mr autopilot.
seriously guys, this is exactly what I hate in this profession done more and more by stupids who only learn procedures instead flying.
Yeah, even in cockpits many still discuss about where is the "comma" and what page exactly. Now the best pilot is the one who knows by heart all sops word by word, better than a monkey, not the only one who can still think by himself and fly a plane properly.
Thank you Mr autopilot.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Herod Wrote
Hi Herod, I did wonder if that was the one! I thought it was G-IOMA. I'm glad the Norwich based operator gave the unfortunate co-pilot a job on the basis she was unlikely to make the same mistake twice. I suspect an unhappy atmosphere in the flight deck with an anxious co-pilot trying to please the Captain led to a rushed and incorrect movement. There may have been a similar thing in the Papa India Staines accident with the premature droop retraction.
That was the accident I referred to in the post above yours. Location, Manchester. Reg G-OMAN iirc. I ferried it to Norwich for repair.
Hi Herod, I did wonder if that was the one! I thought it was G-IOMA. I'm glad the Norwich based operator gave the unfortunate co-pilot a job on the basis she was unlikely to make the same mistake twice. I suspect an unhappy atmosphere in the flight deck with an anxious co-pilot trying to please the Captain led to a rushed and incorrect movement. There may have been a similar thing in the Papa India Staines accident with the premature droop retraction.
Suninmyeyes
Papa India was a complicated training/management accident with a probable misunderstood command outside of sop but P2s flat mate had selected land flap at noise abatement cut back instead of up the week before.
Probably because we shouldn't have been flying on line due to inadequate training and incompetent procedures - there was a work to rule and a war zone atmosphere.
The culprit went on to fly Concorde which IMHO proves that it wasn't a lack of ability - just a sh@t system.
Papa India was a complicated training/management accident with a probable misunderstood command outside of sop but P2s flat mate had selected land flap at noise abatement cut back instead of up the week before.
Probably because we shouldn't have been flying on line due to inadequate training and incompetent procedures - there was a work to rule and a war zone atmosphere.
The culprit went on to fly Concorde which IMHO proves that it wasn't a lack of ability - just a sh@t system.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: nowhere
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a human factors issue and is rare but it does occasionally happen and can happen with an experienced or inexperienced pilot. Back in the 80's as a two striper on a 747 classic I called "positive climb" and the Captain with 28 years in the company called "flap up". I replied "gear up" paused, he confirmed and I raised the gear. Later the Captain could not believe he had said flap but fortunately the Flight Engineer told him in no uncertain terms he had.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels. Unfortunately on one touchdown the copilot selected the gear up and sod's law it was a crosswind and the squat switch was on the downwind main gear and the gear raised dinging both props.
Occasionally you get a pilot calling for gear up and the other pilot's hand goes towards the flap lever momentarily before self correcting. Seen it all but it is very rare that someone goes ahead and actually selects flap up instead of gear up. The beauty of having two pilots is one notices the error and normally stops it before it happens. But if an error can be made it will be made due fatigue, complacency, distraction.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels. Unfortunately on one touchdown the copilot selected the gear up and sod's law it was a crosswind and the squat switch was on the downwind main gear and the gear raised dinging both props.
Occasionally you get a pilot calling for gear up and the other pilot's hand goes towards the flap lever momentarily before self correcting. Seen it all but it is very rare that someone goes ahead and actually selects flap up instead of gear up. The beauty of having two pilots is one notices the error and normally stops it before it happens. But if an error can be made it will be made due fatigue, complacency, distraction.
This is a human factors issue and is rare but it does occasionally happen and can happen with an experienced or inexperienced pilot.
It may be something intrinsic to the human condition and the way our cognitive apparatus works. It might be easier to accept that we are all susceptible to the odd “brain fart” and to develop our procedures with this in mind. I guess that is part of the logic behind read backs of instructions, as it helps to trap an incipient error, much as in the “gear up” “flaps up...” “no, gear up!” example above.
It also shows that doing things in a hurry without time for intellectual examination of your proposed actions can lead to problems. Are we in such a desperate need to get the gear up that we don’t have time to think/check about which control we’re going to use to do it...?
Its not the first
It's been done before.
Have a google of "BASI VH-NJL December 1997" or https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/156999...704041_001.pdf .
It'll be done again.
Have a google of "BASI VH-NJL December 1997" or https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/156999...704041_001.pdf .
It'll be done again.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Suninmyeyes. Yep, and a very competent FO she was too. However, I think she may have been the only person to be involved in two mishaps on the same page of Flight's list of accidents/incidents that year. She was my FO on the second one, and I couldn't have asked for a more helpful colleague.
_____
Anyone flown the Beechcraft Baron ? Some have the gear handle on the left and the flap handle on the right and some have it the other way around. A few people have managed to retract the gear while exiting the runway.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On my Boeing, it does whatever we tell it. I don't know much about Airbus, but I would imagine the flap lever is one of the few where the crew have direct control over it.
I can see the mistake happening - it's a crossover between "gear up" and "flaps up" and two motor-actions albeit different levers - but as I said, I'd like to see the experience levels.
I can see the mistake happening - it's a crossover between "gear up" and "flaps up" and two motor-actions albeit different levers - but as I said, I'd like to see the experience levels.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bucuresti
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No-flaps takeoff
Unrelated (but it's been bugging me for a couple of weeks anyway, so what the hell.)
I was mildly perturbed that my Austrian Airlines flight a couple of weeks ago took off without any flaps; but subsequently gather that on that particular aircraft (Fokker 100) it's normal procedure. At the time I simply reasoned that we were relatively lightly loaded.
Are any of the bigger birds - such as the A320 I assume we're talking about here - authorised for flapless takeoff, out of interest? (Good to know such that the next time I'm mildly perturbed I can either raise the level to "highly" or reduce to "not at all" ;-).)
I was mildly perturbed that my Austrian Airlines flight a couple of weeks ago took off without any flaps; but subsequently gather that on that particular aircraft (Fokker 100) it's normal procedure. At the time I simply reasoned that we were relatively lightly loaded.
Are any of the bigger birds - such as the A320 I assume we're talking about here - authorised for flapless takeoff, out of interest? (Good to know such that the next time I'm mildly perturbed I can either raise the level to "highly" or reduce to "not at all" ;-).)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The A300 is. In the A32S config 1 + f is needed for takeoff as a minimum.
There's been a lot of talk of semantics here. For Airbus the command is Flaps Zero for flaps up. And Gear Up to raise the gear. Flaps Up is not a standard call.
There's been a lot of talk of semantics here. For Airbus the command is Flaps Zero for flaps up. And Gear Up to raise the gear. Flaps Up is not a standard call.