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Positive climb - flaps up

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Positive climb - flaps up

Old 6th Mar 2016, 10:43
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No; not to my knowledge. I, too, felt slightly nervous one day on a DC-9 family. I was sitting opposite the leading edge of the wing and there were no LED's deployed. On my previous flights with the carrier there had been. It was too late to ask and I had to have faith in "the crew knew what they were doing' and the takeoff config system. Later I found out there were different models in 'the family' and the carrier had a mixed fleet; some with LED's others not.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 11:21
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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All my airlines have used "Positive climb." Nevertheless, if the standard call is "Positive rate.", then that's what you say.
When I was in the RAF it was "Undercarriage up." When I left it became "Gear up." but never say "Cheer up." to the FO because, perhaps . . .
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 11:59
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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All about training standards eh ? on the T1e, flap handle & LE handle were exactly the same type but very close to eachother. FE turned to me, new on type & said that if I ever looked like I was going for the wrong handle, he would break my "F-----N" arm off! Charming. Lovely bods the ole FE's !
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 12:14
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RAT 5

As a pax, and if possible, I always look to see if these devices are deployed prior to taxi.
If I can't see I listen depending on type.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 12:33
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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@gcal : that's good that you look out. An extra pair of eyes in the cabin are always useful. If we look to Dryden, concerns were raised in the cabin as to the state of the wings however these never made it to the FD and disaster struck. So if in doubt shout. I'd rather feel a little foolish and still be alive rather than keeping my concerns to myself and ending up dead or injured.

However, Airbus recommend the A32S are taxied flaps up in icing conditions now so don't be alarmed (as long as it's cold/snowy/rainy/foggy) to the runway. Although this was always the SOP when there was slush/snow/ice it is now recommended to do it without contaminants on the ground so just be wary. All crews should have the correct configuration before passing the holding point.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 12:46
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Forgetting to lower the gear for landing is another well worn trap. In another era I was training a new co-pilot on the HS 748. The HS 748 had a nifty ASI which, if the gear was not down by I think around 110 knots with landing flap selected, a flag would flash on the dial of the ASI.

We were downwind with zero thrust set on one engine in preparation for a single engine landing. The U/C horn had been silenced because it had sounded with one throttle was nearly closed (zero thrust) and first stage flap selected. It was a long time ago, but I think that was the reason. I was fully aware of the risk involved of inadvertent landing with gear up in such circumstances and kept a close watch on the co-pilot.

He was distracted by another aircraft on long final and elected to extend downwind for separation and wisely elected to delay gear extension since we were on one engine. . The scene was being set.
Now on final at four miles and cleared to land, he forgot to extend the landing gear. These things happen. With landing flap down and horn silenced we were faster than normal (no gear). As the instructor I had to either say nothing or tell him to ask for gear down while there was time - or go-around. I was counting on the flashing ASI flag as a last ditch reminder of the gear being unsafe and hoped he would take the required corrective action after he saw the flag.

But to my amazement he was concentrating so much that he never saw the flashing flag. Or, if he did, it meant nothing to him because he was new to type. He pressed on trying to get the speed back towards VREF.

At 500 feet I told him to go-around on two engines as I zeroed the rudder trim. He did as he was told and called for gear up. I told him to raise the gear himself instead of me doing it. He reached over to the gear handle and saw it was already up. That shook him to the core. It was a lesson well learned for both him and me.

I had seen with my own eyes how even with the most reliable of multiple gear warning systems, (horn and gear lights and ASI flag) can be missed when the pilot is concentrating on something else. In this case approach speed and profile.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 18:03
  #47 (permalink)  

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slfandproud. To ease your concerns, zero flap is normal on the F100. I've not flown the F70, but I'll ask people who do know.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 18:35
  #48 (permalink)  

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My sources were lightning fast. Yes flap zero for both the F100 and the F70
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 20:56
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I once had the Effoh retract the flaps when I asked for "flaps up speed".
The 737 being what it is, all it took was lowering the nose a bit and that excellent wing just kept on flying.

Worst order ever, since changed.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 22:45
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Originally Posted by Metro man View Post
Anyone flown the Beechcraft Baron ? Some have the gear handle on the left and the flap handle on the right and some have it the other way around. A few people have managed to retract the gear while exiting the runway.
Seems like they were moved to be the same as the King Airs or something.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved.
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 23:50
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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We were downwind with zero thrust set on one engine in preparation for a single engine landing. The U/C horn had been silenced because it had sounded with one throttle was nearly closed (zero thrust) and first stage flap selected.
That is a classic set up for disaster as you point out.

Now, this is no s**t. Or, should I say, once upon a time...

Three decades ago a U.S. airline was doing a captain's rating ride in a steam driven 737 in Berlin. The instructor was the head 737 check airman and the FAA was on the jumpseat observing. Due to the restricted Cold War airspace the required airwork was done in a tight pattern near TXL. A reject, a V1 cut and some bounces back at Tegel went well and the crew set up for the traditional no-flap full stop landing to complete the ride.

The gear warning horn circuit breaker was pulled and the trap was sprung.

They forgot to lower the gear as the check airman pointed out how difficult it was to decelerate on path in the low drag flapless configuration even with idle thrust.

The PF in the left seat realized in the flare that the already nose high picture was settling too low and pushed the power up just as things started to scrape. Hydraulic components were torn off the bottoms of the JT-8D engine nacelles and they did a manual reversion missed approach. And manual gear extension followed by landing with pneumatic braking.

The FAA guy was a furloughee from the airline so the incident was handled locally with discretion in the pre-social media era to protect the careers of all concerned.

Years later I worked with the PF's training partner, Dale C., who was riding back in the cabin during the gear up touch and go. He was of the opinion that there was little deceleration during the runway contact and if they had not gone flying again they would have ended up in a fireball in the congested area east of the runway.
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 17:25
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dontdoit View Post
Sometimes caused by ill-conceived cockpit procedures. I remember one operator very similar to this, who had an acceleration call of: "flaps up speed".

I think everyone except management can see the problem with that one. Well, after several aircraft struggled away with no flaps and no speed, the call was eventually changed.
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 17:56
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So complicated!

All those levers, buttons and lights! So easy to get them mixed up.
i suppose it's not politically correct to say it was a simple pilot F..K UP?
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 18:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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There used to be a Viscount operator in UK which had a great variety of 800 models. So, one night a F/O was having his command upgrade at Belfast. The time came for a flapless landing and Murphy's law dictated that this particular aircraft was not fitted with the usual gear warning system.

So it was that the poor chap's check ride culminated in an expensive graunch when the props hit the runway and he slid to an eventual halt with the fire section in close pursuit.

What did make me smile was the report of the aftermath from our Servisair agent.

It seems that the poor chap went into the Servisair office (no mobile phones then) and called his wife.

"Whatever you do, don't spend any more money".
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 20:46
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OK, only a single engine Lake amphib pilot here, but is there really any significant need to retract gear so early after takeoff in modern jet airliners?

Obviously there was an advantage to cleaning up the airframe in the case of light twins, and one can understand the need in the prop twins of yesteryear (DC3, CV240-440, M202/404, F27 etc). The only reason was to improve SE performance while low and slow.

But this old habit has persisted into the modern jet era, and my basic question is whether it is still operationally important.
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 21:25
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Have flown Airbus for a few years. When the PF asked for a flapchange, the mandatory answer for the PNF was "speed checked, flaps…"
After flying mostly Boeings it initially sounds weird, a bit patronising perhaps, but once it has become a habit, you know it gives you just a microsecond extra before your hand goes to the flaplever, and it avoids things like these. It would have felt "wrong" to retract flaps without saying "speed checked".
(Not to start an A vs B fight, am happily flying Boeings again, but it really makes sense..)
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 21:33
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Oh, oh, I see the incident aircraft WAS an Airbus
Any idea Easy uses the phrase "speed checked"?
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 09:59
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Originally Posted by RobertS975 View Post
OK, only a single engine Lake amphib pilot here, but is there really any significant need to retract gear so early after takeoff in modern jet airliners?
Yes. The take-off performance is predicated on getting the gear up as soon as you're airborne. It is still important, no matter what type of multi-engine you're flying, to get cleaned up as efficiently as you can.
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 10:46
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another one, 5 years ago:

"The co-pilot inadvertently retracted the slats and flaps after takeoff instead of raising the landing gear. The aircraft continued to climb but the stall warning system operated twice before the aircraft accelerated to the normal climb speed. A slat technical issue after engine start had required the co-pilot to operate the slats/flap lever several times to clear the fault. These actions, coupled with a mental rehearsal of the procedure that the pilots would need to action should the fault recur on takeoff, had mentally predisposed the co-pilot to operate the slats and flaps lever after takeoff despite his intention to operate the landing gear lever."

together with a short but nice report:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...MAJS_01-12.pdf
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 16:47
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
Yes. The take-off performance is predicated on getting the gear up as soon as you're airborne. It is still important, no matter what type of multi-engine you're flying, to get cleaned up as efficiently as you can.
With a V1 engine failure, certainly, but I doubt it in normal ops. It might have an influence on noise monitoring, and would have a marginal fuel penalty and delay rapid climb based short cuts of the SID, but I don't think it'd be a problem to delay the gear until 400' in normal operations.
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