Men kicked off flight for looking too Muslim

[Hydromet]

Personally, as SLF, I want the Captain to retain the right to be able to off-load whoever he likes.

As SLF, I'm happy to accept that the captain is an expert at flying an aircraft. That doesn't make him any better at judging who is a danger to his aircraft than Fred Nerk.
Still, if he wants to take the responsibility, and pay the appropriate penalties when he gets it wrong...

[llondel]

I wonder what would be the effect of announcing "this passenger is flying with us today. He has passed all the same security checks as the rest of the passengers on board. If you do not wish to share a flight with him, please inform the cabin crew, who will make arrangements for you and your baggage to be removed from the flight".

[Wageslave]

What on EARTH has demonstrating "dishonesty" vis a vis a fake passport got to do with an assumption of it also being a physical hazard to the flight - having, as I previously pointed out, presented no hazard whatsoever to his inbound flight. that is so utterly irrational it astonishes me it even needs to be stated. Is there something special about passport fraud? Do you come the Big I Am and offload him because he defrauded a business partner? Just what level of self-appointed moral judgement do you imagine your four bars entitle you to exert?

I think some people here are severely exceeding not only their capacity for exercising logic and clear thought but also their professional authority.

I am not impressed that "commander's decision" is compatible with that level of unsupportable dictatorial behaviour.

Is he likely to be a a danger to the flight? Yes or No? That is all that is under consideration.

In the example given the answer is clearly No.

[Hotel Tango]

I wonder what would be the effect of announcing "this passenger is flying with us today. He has passed all the same security checks as the rest of the passengers on board. If you do not wish to share a flight with him, please inform the cabin crew, who will make arrangements for you and your baggage to be removed from the flight".

I honestly like it, but it may of course backfire if the FD and or cabin crew walk off

[golfyankeesierra]

Still, profiling is very effective in security, and let's face it, these guys ticked a lot of the boxes.., especially purposely dispersing as a group and one of them sitting first row in biz while not at first glance filling the profile of businessman/frequent traveller ..
But the way the airline handled it is almost unforgivable.
And not everyone wearing a beard and a turban is a Taliban!

[Good Business Sense]

professional authority

poor guy

extreme

unsupportable dictatorial behaviour

So we have a few folk very happy to accept a deportee who has just been caught attempting to enter a country/Manila with a false passport and nobody knows anything about them - nothing - no name, nationality, untraceable
......... a very interesting approach as a Commander

[Huck]

It seems the "Keep calm and carry on" of a previous generation has been replaced with "We're scared sh**less why aren't you?"

Amen and amen.

[parabellum]

What on EARTH has demonstrating "dishonesty" vis a vis a fake passport got to do with an assumption of it also being a physical hazard to the flight - having, as I previously pointed out, presented no hazard whatsoever to his inbound flight. that is so utterly irrational it astonishes me it even needs to be stated. Is there something special about passport fraud? Do you come the Big I Am and offload him because he defrauded a business partner? Just what level of self-appointed moral judgement do you imagine your four bars entitle you to exert?

I think some people here are severely exceeding not only their capacity for exercising logic and clear thought but also their professional authority.

I am not impressed that "commander's decision" is compatible with that level of unsupportable dictatorial behaviour.

Is he likely to be a a danger to the flight? Yes or No? That is all that is under consideration.

In the example given the answer is clearly No.

All so utterly wrong in all respects. You have no idea what his motives are, but you do know he travels on a false document, you don't know his real identity and that may be because he is on a world wide 'Not to Fly' list and the fact he did nothing to raise suspicion inbound doesn't mean he won't outbound, you simply don't know his motives, deportation may have been one of them, who were the pax on the outbound flight? Any VIPs? any politically sensitive people, in other words any 'targets' for a terrorist?

Some of the soft, 'let him go' and 'who are you to deny him passage' posts here are very disappointing and indicate that flight crew know an awful lot more about terrorism than these posters.

In the example given the answer is clearly No.

The only thing that is clear as that you don't have a clue Wageslave.

I think some people here are severely exceeding not only their capacity for exercising logic and clear thought but also their professional authority.

I am not impressed that "commander's decision" is compatible with that level of unsupportable dictatorial behaviour.

Once again Wageslave you are just demonstrating an abysmal ignorance combined with a huge chip on your shoulder about crew powers and responsibilities.

[_Phoenix]

They are each seeking $1 million in compensatory damages and $5 million in punitive damages.

I'm wondering if they planned all this indeed, but for the money... Have to admit, that's smart!

[LlamaFarmer]

Originally Posted by Wageslave

What on EARTH has demonstrating "dishonesty" vis a vis a fake passport got to do with an assumption of it also being a physical hazard to the flight - having, as I previously pointed out, presented no hazard whatsoever to his inbound flight. that is so utterly irrational it astonishes me it even needs to be stated. Is there something special about passport fraud? Do you come the Big I Am and offload him because he defrauded a business partner? Just what level of self-appointed moral judgement do you imagine your four bars entitle you to exert?

I think some people here are severely exceeding not only their capacity for exercising logic and clear thought but also their professional authority.

I am not impressed that "commander's decision" is compatible with that level of unsupportable dictatorial behaviour.

Is he likely to be a a danger to the flight? Yes or No? That is all that is under consideration.

In the example given the answer is clearly No.

Have to disagree with you, parabellum makes valid points.


Whilst he could be travelling on a fake passport because he cannot get a real one yet is desperate to travel for honest reasons (such as to visit sick family, or escaping persecution, they could genuinely have no malicious intent).


BUT, he could be travelling on it because he IS purposefully hiding his true identity, because he is a security threat and a no-fly list.

Perhaps he knows the procedures and is counting on being denied entry into the country, and is expecting/hoping to be returned back to point of departure.


Can you definitively say someone who has purposefully used false travel documents has no dangerous intentions for doing so?
If not, I don't feel it appropriate to put other passengers, crew and potentially people on the ground below, at risk without taking such precautions as criminally deporting them. Especially if they are travelling in desperation.


Its concerning that others appear they wouldn't even have any hesitation to allow them on.


It may be the airlines job to get them back to point of departure, but its security's job to have stopped them getting through in the first place, so it's not the airlines fault necessarily.




Escorted and detained, like they do when deporting criminals, I wouldn't have a problem. After all, travelling on false documents is a crime.

Originally Posted by legislation.gov

4 - Possession of false identity documents etc with improper intention


(1)It is an offence for a person (“P”) with an improper intention to have in P’s possession or under P’s control—

(a)an identity document that is false and that P knows or believes to be false,

(b)an identity document that was improperly obtained and that P knows or believes to have been improperly obtained, or

(c)an identity document that relates to someone else.


(2)Each of the following is an improper intention—

(a)the intention of using the document for establishing personal information about P;

(b)the intention of allowing or inducing another to use it for establishing, ascertaining or verifying personal information about P or anyone else.


(3)In subsection (2)(b) the reference to P or anyone else does not include, in the case of a document within subsection (1)(c), the individual to whom it relates.


(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or a fine (or both).





6 - Possession of false identity documents etc without reasonable excuse


(1)It is an offence for a person (“P”), without reasonable excuse, to have in P’s possession or under P’s control—

(a)an identity document that is false,

(b)an identity document that was improperly obtained,

(c)an identity document that relates to someone else,

(d)any apparatus which, to P’s knowledge, is or has been specially designed or adapted for the making of false identity documents, or

(e)any article or material which, to P’s knowledge, is or has been specially designed or adapted to be used in the making of such documents.


(2)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or a fine (or both), or

(b)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the maximum period or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both).


(3)In subsection (2)(b) “the maximum period” means—

(a)in England and Wales or Scotland, 12 months, and

(b)in Northern Ireland, 6 months.


(4)In subsection (3)(a) the reference to 12 months in England and Wales is to be read, in relation to an offence committed before the commencement of section 154(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, as a reference to 6 months.

[PacWest]

ExXb

Maybe punitive damages should be awarded (and donated to a worthwhile charity) to stop knee-jerk reactions like this.But this is a distinctly US concept, so I'll withhold further comments.

A distinctly U.S. concept - ?


When was the last time 4 men of middle east/asian appearance flew a Boeing 737 loaded with passengers into a Swiss office tower - until such time as one does then it is doubtful you (who never miss an opportunity to sneer at Americans on this forum) have any idea of the training flight attendants receive in the U.S. with respect to safety awareness, et al. - since 9/11.


`

[ExXB]

PacWest

I was referring to the concept of punitive damages which, I believe, is a distinctly US concept. I'm sorry you perceived a sneer

Can we get back to the topic again?

[Scuffers]

Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra

Still, profiling is very effective in security, and let's face it, these guys ticked a lot of the boxes.., especially purposely dispersing as a group and one of them sitting first row in biz while not at first glance filling the profile of businessman/frequent traveller ..
But the way the airline handled it is almost unforgivable.
And not everyone wearing a beard and a turban is a Taliban!

do we actually know that was the stated reason for them being offloaded, or is that the claim from the offloaded?

I 100% agree their actions must have raised almost every flag security wise, ignoring their appearance/nationality/religion, so I still side with the Captain's decision (likelihood is he never even saw them before he decided).

As SLF I have had full body scans, my trainers searched, etc etc, do I like it? not really, but I accept that security needs to be high and as a consequence, I will get stopped every so often.

[Dont Hang Up]

I 100% agree their actions must have raised almost every flag security wise, ignoring their appearance/nationality/religion

So if four suited, affluent looking businessmen had performed these identical late changes to their travel plans they would also have been offloaded?

I suspect not.

As SLF I have had full body scans, my trainers searched, etc etc, do I like it? not really, but I accept that security needs to be high and as a consequence, I will get stopped every so often.

And I am sure they were subject to exactly the same. But having passed all these strict security checks would you have appreciated being then offloaded because the cabin crew did not like the look of you?

[hoss183]

I think the level of suspicion is simply about how many boxes get ticked.
- changing seats, tick
- sitting up front near to the cockpit, tick
- in a group, tick
- religious/ethnic group, tick
- false passport (in reference to the parallel discussion), tick

Remove 1 or 2 of those ticks and there would normally be no problem. In this case a lot of boxes were ticked and someone rather than quietly informing TSA for a recheck, overreacted.

[ExXB]

Apparently the punters can swap seats, possibly for a fee, without involving the airline.

NEW 'SEAT SWAP' APP GIVES AIRLINE PASSENGERS THE CHANCE TO ESCAPE SMELLY NEIGHBOURS, tick

How it works

[Wannabe Flyer]

They swapped seats to Sit TOGETHER. They are not all from the same religious or ethnic group. These do not tick the same boxes as 9/11. Also given the level of paranoia & latest information actual terrorists are looking more white, normal & low profile. The were boarding an International flight & therefore were probably finger printed & & their passports scanned to be validated.

I think the captain would be hard pressed to find a job for better money if & when he applies for a position on an International carrier that flies more eastwards. He will probably off load all his passengers out of certain flights & definitely be jumpy with the look of many of the crews that service his aircraft from the sand pit onwards.

They should get compensation & he should get an all expenses paid tickets on Emirates doing multiple pit stops eastwards.

[goudie]

Waiting to board at Luton some years ago Mrs G espied 3 young muslim? guys who complete with backpacks looked suspicious to her. She sidled over to them for a closer look, came back and said, ''it's ok, they're with their mum!''

[Alain67]

When a bad guy has gone away in a red car, police will stop red cars on the roads for a check, though most of the drivers are cool people. Everyone understands that checking all the cars would be a waist of time, and no one talks about "racism" in such a case. In the recent years, 99% of the "red cars" have been muslims...

[RAT 5]

Mohammed Ali is a muslim. When was the last time he was bumped?