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BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR

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BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR

Old 9th Nov 2015, 00:20
  #1841 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Age: 49
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CP location?

Re: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post9174456


(b)even so, loss of control stiffness would likely lead to flutter to destruction
very rapidly indeed, coupled with shredding and shedding of trailing edge components., rapid up downbending loads
Sorry to repeat. I've been there seen that.
I would like to add that loss of the trailing edge/elevators would move the CP for the remaining horizontal stabilizer forward, possibly in front of the pivot point. If this happened, then the HS would rotate (upwards or downwards) to the maximum angle mechanically possible ...
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 01:00
  #1842 (permalink)  
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they still was offered to be put through VIP route without security check for $20
There seems to be a total confusion about security procedures at Egyptian airports. In order to GET IN TO THE TERMINAL you need to stand in a long queue, at the end of which a regular (possibly illiterate) policeman checks your passport and ticket, and if he succeeds in matching at least parts of the name in your passport with the name on a printed piece of paper apearing to be a ticket (in the age of e-tickets, no it is not good on a computer or phone ) and also manages to find a date somewhere that matches the currect date, he will let you in. There is an x-ray machine at the entrance of the check-in area where all luggage gets an initial screening. This is NOT a security screening but a customs screening, they are primarily looking not for weapons/explosives but for contraband (antiquities, in Sharm corals and other marine life, etc.). There is also a metal detector gate, but in practice if it beeps they look at you, if a foreigner they just wave you through.

The $20 VIP channel will only allow you to bypass the entrance passport check and customs screening before check in. After your luggage gets checked in, it undergoes the regular X-ray security screening just like everywhere else in the world (for all its worth), and passengers get screened twice, once after passport control, then again at the boarding gate. Screening is no worse than anywhere else in the world (but staff are much friendlier than the average screener in Europe or the US), but of course it offers zero protection against anyone with an airside pass, just like everywhere else in the world.

Last edited by andrasz; 9th Nov 2015 at 01:26.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 01:11
  #1843 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Control Eng
Some of you appear to be confusing the horizontal stabilizer blade seal panel with damage to the HS.
I certainly did...

At least this confirms what several learned posters suggested that it would be impossible for the HS to fail the way I suggested.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 01:24
  #1844 (permalink)  
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Worth reposting this video from Antelope - as a new contributor his post landed way back. I'm not sure this has been seen. Of interest 8:58 to 9:03.

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Old 9th Nov 2015, 02:13
  #1845 (permalink)  
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@ Blake777

Many thanks, that is indeed the first picture we have of the Right HS. On superficial look it seems to have failed the same way as the left one, and there is no sign of the central section.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 02:17
  #1846 (permalink)  
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Video times of interest

#1854 (permalink)

re http://youtu.be/Oa9Q8nCqB0w

at following times

8;53— a part but has near top of photo has been blurred- is it part of HS ??

11:55 book found

12;45 --- black square bag or part ??

15:00 o2 mask passenger ?

16:00 cell phones

17:20 aft section with PB

19:00 and on passports- credit cards, and logging of data
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 02:29
  #1847 (permalink)  
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Normal soot ?

Anyone say if this is normal soot/staining expected in this piece?

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Old 9th Nov 2015, 02:47
  #1848 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Normal Soot?

The uploader has not made this video available in your country.

Sorry about that.

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Old 9th Nov 2015, 02:57
  #1849 (permalink)  
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al jazeera video

The uploader has not made this video available in your country.

Sorry about that.

++ Video is nothing new-

and anyone can view it using TOR browser

Look it up
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 03:00
  #1850 (permalink)  
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Antelope's video shows a fairly wide spread between ground searchers. Depending on color, shape and distance from searcher the smallest objects they can expect to find will be 4-6 inches.

Small fragments produced by a bomb going off nearby will tend to be much smaller and would likely blend in nicely with the pebbles and local soil.

To find those, you pretty much need a shoulder to shoulder search on hands and knees. Given the area, not really feasible. Perhaps such fragments may be found lodged in the airframe, baggage or bodies.

The local news made a big deal that an anonymous Egyptian expressed an opinion that likelihood of a bomb is considered 90%

The possibility of flutter is raising its head. Control surfaces parted company with the airframe. Whether that was the initial failure or came some milliseconds after something else remains open.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 03:10
  #1851 (permalink)  
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Vid @ 8:58

Different damage type than the L HS. Appears some of center section remains...hard to tell, but the bend up at the root is probably deformed aluminum holding the bend so suggests that's the failure direction, ie down by the tip, not what posters have expected except those suggesting front pivot failure and full nose down HS, the center section prying apart the fuse structure, dropping all out the bottom. Would like to see the bottom of the aft fuse/VS remains when they finally move it. Outboard elev section must have been moved to pic location. Too unbelievable to have it so close. Yet other debris videoed except baggage has tended not to have been grouped by investigators. It does suggest the elev was not very far away from this piece. You Tube publish date of Nov 5. To speakers of Russian, does the video's audio tell a filming date and if so how does that compare with other films seen so far?
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 03:24
  #1852 (permalink)  
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Likely the RH HS as both wings/wing-tips are accounted for.

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Old 9th Nov 2015, 03:27
  #1853 (permalink)  
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Blake777, thanks for the Antelope link, surely the most heartbreaking of all those posted so far and certainly most revealing of the search effort. Something I find mildly surprising is the extent to which the Egyptian government agreed, and so speedily, to large-scale Russian military participation in the sweep-up operation.

The men in the video were obviously combing for documentation and, possibly, remains, leaving behind anything not related to those two.

Given what looks like massive Russian deployment I'm wondering whether the presence of a large number of Russian military aircraft taking up space on the tarmac might have something to do with the turning away of "rescue" civil aircraft.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 04:15
  #1854 (permalink)  
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Scrapes Stain Soot

Just to make sure..this picture..is this normal wear and tear..ref scrapes stain/soot?

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Old 9th Nov 2015, 04:24
  #1855 (permalink)  
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A Technical Analysis Part Deux

This post is my second technical review/ analysis, and it too is long- my apologies again. It builds on the first posted two evenings ago. I donít know how to go back and find that one, but it would probably help you to read that one before this one if you havenít already done so.

In that post I analyzed the failure of the fuselage in front of the frame just in front of the rear cabin doors, as well as the failures in the rear fuselage. Based on a more intensive review of the available data (Including the two horizontal stabilizers- which were not available to me earlier) I have the following additional observations to make:

1. The fuselage appears to have failed in front of the frame in two discrete sequences. A careful review of the rivetline along the entire plane of failure shows scalloping and clear failure under tension from the top of the cabin approximately halfway down the side of the fuselage- approximately to where the floor would be. (In other words: It was forcibly pulled apart.)

2. From there down the failures are a zipper type tear. The paint is no longer missing from the elongated sections, and between each rivet the failure is a straight line, from the rear (aft) of one rivet to the front (forward facing) edge of the next rivet.

From these observations I think it is safe to say that the fuselage initially failed due to unknown forces being applied in a downward direction aft of the failure point. After that (weíre talking just a few seconds or even less for this entire evolution) the fuselage basically just fell off the rear of the airplane, which was probably accentuated as the aircraft was tumbling nose down due to the loss of the tail surfaces.

So what force(s) caused the fuselage to fail?? I have no idea, nor does anyone else on this board, but there are a few suggestive things to look at.

1. The only thing aft of the failure point even potentially capable of exerting such force was the horizontal stabilizer.

2. The horizontal stabilizer appears to have failed in a similar catastrophic symmetrical fashion, and at least on the port side the rear hinge-pin remained intact on the HS and simply tore the mounting pin right through the attach point located on the airframe. This is very suggestive of an enormous application of bending force.

3. The port side HS shows more intact carbon fiber around the hinge and still present pin, which would be both expected given the reinforcement, but which is also suggestive of a tearing motion in a rearward direction, pulling the fibers apart longitudinally. Additionally the leading edge of the torque box for the HS shows more damage (significantly more) than the rear, indicating (possibly) that the failure was in a generally front to back direction.

3. The rear of the rudder was destroyed as well. This suggests that it may have been impacted by the departing HS.

4. The other indicative evidence currently available is already in my previous post.

So what caused the Horizontal Stabilizer to fail??

1. Flutter is unlikely as while flutter could have caused the structure to instantly fail it would not have applied the necessary forces to cause the fuselage failure as described above. Additionally the FDR would show the extreme deviations of the control surfaces, even if for only a few milliseconds.

2. In my previous post I suggested a failure of the HS causing it to slam to a 90 degree angle but have since revised that possibility to one more in line with a failure of the jackscrew mounting plate, or something more benign. Many photos have already shown this plate (or what appears to be this plate) bent upwards into the vertical stabilizer assembly. (Also possibly explaining the missing rudderÖ) But at that altitude and airspeed it would likely only take 15 or 20 degrees of instant pitch change to destroy the tail- and to separate the fuselage before separating from the airframe. (20 degrees of negative pitch would equate to an increase in negative lift more than four times greater than what was being provided before that instant in time.) Iím totally making these calcs up, but if the static amount of downward force before the failure was 1000Kg then the resultant of the failure would increase that nearly instantly to 4300Kg roughly at the chord of the HS. With a moment arm of 10m (total estimate) between the HS and the failure point that would result in a torque (twisting) force going from 10,000kg/m to 43,000Kg/m. That would, in any reasonable world, break pretty much anything. (Because Iím in the prehistoric US- hereís that same rough calc in English units: 2000Lb increasing to 8600Lb at the chord of the HS. 30 feet of lever gives the initial static force as 60,000 ft. pounds and the resultant force at the moment of failure as 258,000 ft. pounds.) The point of those really creative numbers is to show that no matter what the negative lift was being provided on the tail it wouldnít take much to push it to astronomic levels at the point of the fuselage where it failed.

3. A failure as described above would make one hell of a big bang.

So to sum all this up:

1. The airplane lost control and crashed because the tail separated from the fuselage, leaving it completely uncontrollable and (likely) tumbling as it came apart.

2. The available evidence suggests strongly (very strongly) that the failure in the tail occurred prior to the failure of the fuselage and pressure hull.

3. The tail of the fuselage separated from the fuselage (nearly certainly) because something (unknown) happened aft of the point of failure that inflicted a significant amount of bending force (torque) on the airframe itself, causing the failure under tension of the upper fuselage, and the subsequent and consequent zipper failure on the lower half once the initial force had been dissipated- and the HS had departed the aircraft.

4. The aircraft tumbled, destroying the rear fuselage up to the rear of the wing torque box.

5. The tail section, minus the entire HS assembly and a good portion of the vertical stabilizer and rudder descended hull down (due to the remaining sliver of vertical stabilizer) until it impacted the ground.

Everything I have described here is possible, is indicated by the available evidence, and would adequately explain the immediate failure of the FDR and CVR as they were literally right next to the main point of initial failure.

As to what initiated the chain of events I literally have no idea. Iím still working through the available video- like many others, but for the moment Iím still waiting to be shown by the US and UK as to how a bomb in the lower compartment led to the chain of failures that the visible record indicates occurred.

My .02 as always,
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 05:20
  #1856 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Francisco
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Recent photos of EI-ETJ

Wantion: I made a gallery on Flickr of recent photos I found of EI-ETJ. There is a lot of black something covering the top of the tail cone under the rudder. It appears on both port and starboard sides.

I also noted a "worn" looking area on the starboard side at the bottom of the rudder.

Hope that helps.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 05:47
  #1857 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
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More pictures of A321 one week before

? ???? ? ? ????? ?? ???? ????????... - ???????? ???????

Tail section is of interest I believe.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 07:30
  #1858 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2005
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to large-scale Russian military participation
It's not military, its quite famous in the world EMERCOM of RF. They participated in many major rescue operation in the world.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 08:46
  #1859 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2003
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So if this was a bomb, how long before there is a fully reliable chemical proof ?
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 09:10
  #1860 (permalink)  
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Anyone say if this is normal soot/staining expected in this piece?

There isn't any pictures showing underside of rear fuselage. But this kind of sooting is not normal for sure.
It points to a fire after initial event and for quite some time. It means that after initial event tail remained attached for quite some time.

Actually this sooting is on the roof. Right where vertical stabilzer used to be. It could be oil. From pictures you can see, that this kind of "sooting" has been almost constant throughout this plane life. As there is no obvious sooting on a tail part roof, this is not an indication of fire around fuselage.

Last edited by Prada; 9th Nov 2015 at 10:56.
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