BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Kul, you are absolutely correct but compliance cannot be assumed.
Regarding flying over pressurized, that is a non sequitur. If cabin pressure does not leak then cabin altitude will be stable. If there is a leak cabin pressure will drop.
To retain an acceptable pressure the pressurisation will remain on longer. There would be no advantage in pressuring to 4,000 feet, bleeding to 6,000 and repressurizing to 4,000 ad nauseam.
I have been in at least one aircraft with a large gap, not a slow leak, plugged with a cushion and blankets, pressure didn't fluctuate.
Regarding flying over pressurized, that is a non sequitur. If cabin pressure does not leak then cabin altitude will be stable. If there is a leak cabin pressure will drop.
To retain an acceptable pressure the pressurisation will remain on longer. There would be no advantage in pressuring to 4,000 feet, bleeding to 6,000 and repressurizing to 4,000 ad nauseam.
I have been in at least one aircraft with a large gap, not a slow leak, plugged with a cushion and blankets, pressure didn't fluctuate.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Middlesbrough
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of minor corrections to the comments on diving with oxygen. Pure oxygen is neurotoxic above 2 atmospheres pressure, approx 10m depth with pure oxygen. The only folk who use pure oxygen are:
a) military divers, shallower than 10m and using rebreathing systems (no bubbles on the surface; a balance of risks) and
b) the rare really deep divers who use a complex gas mixture- at extreme depth this oxygen pressure equates to low single figure percentages of oxygen by volume, so the gas mixtures are carefully crafted using single gas cylinders.
a) military divers, shallower than 10m and using rebreathing systems (no bubbles on the surface; a balance of risks) and
b) the rare really deep divers who use a complex gas mixture- at extreme depth this oxygen pressure equates to low single figure percentages of oxygen by volume, so the gas mixtures are carefully crafted using single gas cylinders.
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The specific details about difficulties with the door seem plausible."
Both aft doors were still attached to th remains of the tail.
Leaking door seals are not unknown. If pressure leaks are severe, it limits the altitude the aircraft can maintain set cabin pressure altitude.
Don't forget, cabin altitude is controlled by the outflow valve, essentially a big, adjustable hole in the skin.
Side Note: pressure leaks were easier to troubleshoot back when smoking was still allowed on aircraft.
Both aft doors were still attached to th remains of the tail.
Leaking door seals are not unknown. If pressure leaks are severe, it limits the altitude the aircraft can maintain set cabin pressure altitude.
Don't forget, cabin altitude is controlled by the outflow valve, essentially a big, adjustable hole in the skin.
Side Note: pressure leaks were easier to troubleshoot back when smoking was still allowed on aircraft.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More photos of parts here: Russian plane crash reveals ?no proof it broke up in mid-air', Egypt claims | Daily Mail Online
Also "Egyptian authorities claim there is 'NO proof' doomed Russian holiday jet broke up mid-air - but investigators 'interrogate' driver who delivered food to the aircraft"
Also "Egyptian authorities claim there is 'NO proof' doomed Russian holiday jet broke up mid-air - but investigators 'interrogate' driver who delivered food to the aircraft"
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Netherlands
Age: 71
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
shedding one's stab
During my professional airline flying career(B744) I kept on model flying, which has always been a great source for information, training reflexes and understanding aerodynamics. Both good and bad experiences helped me in flying full size. For some bad experiences I was lucky not to encounter full size.
Recently I have lost a (model) twin boom (turbine) jetplane due to flutter, causing the stab to separate completely. It happened at around 10-15m of altitude, flying in a shallow dive.
The sequence of the ensuing breakup went so fast, I and another professional airline pilot could not recall what exactly had happened. So fast, even to exclaim SH.. . That word came when all was already on terra firma....
The fuse was constructed of GFRP, stab and wings were built up balsa structures.
Is was a sudden bang and a cloud of balsa coming down, bigger debris tumbling down along the track.
From the debris path (stab found first) we could piece together that when the stab shed, the forward fuse and wings rotated 90 degrees down at full speed (200+ kmh), in a split second, causing the wings to be stripped of most of the covering and ribs, because of the enormous air loads.
The tank (some 5 litres) was catapulted through the topside of the fuse and was at the end of the trail. It was hardly damaged, still containing nearly all the fuel. Somewhere before that the engine was retrieved.
The "negative" G forces on the model must have been incredible.
I have thought a long time about this and started searching. I found a comparable, be it a tragic full size example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq77TMHzYXA
When the stab sheds, the nose of the Invader dives so quickly, that the wings develop an extreme negative load, clearly visible. Before they actually have time to break, the Invader hits the ground, killing all aboard.
This example may be slightly different, in that the explosion must have contributed in lifting the tail.
IF this Airbus did loose its complete stab in one go, for whatever reason, the ensuing negative loads must have rendered the pilots immediately incapable of any action.
In a very early phase the fuse must have broken up, wings plus a small part of the fuse tumbling down, engines "flying" on.
As far as I can see most parts hit with little horizontal speed.
Recently I have lost a (model) twin boom (turbine) jetplane due to flutter, causing the stab to separate completely. It happened at around 10-15m of altitude, flying in a shallow dive.
The sequence of the ensuing breakup went so fast, I and another professional airline pilot could not recall what exactly had happened. So fast, even to exclaim SH.. . That word came when all was already on terra firma....
The fuse was constructed of GFRP, stab and wings were built up balsa structures.
Is was a sudden bang and a cloud of balsa coming down, bigger debris tumbling down along the track.
From the debris path (stab found first) we could piece together that when the stab shed, the forward fuse and wings rotated 90 degrees down at full speed (200+ kmh), in a split second, causing the wings to be stripped of most of the covering and ribs, because of the enormous air loads.
The tank (some 5 litres) was catapulted through the topside of the fuse and was at the end of the trail. It was hardly damaged, still containing nearly all the fuel. Somewhere before that the engine was retrieved.
The "negative" G forces on the model must have been incredible.
I have thought a long time about this and started searching. I found a comparable, be it a tragic full size example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq77TMHzYXA
When the stab sheds, the nose of the Invader dives so quickly, that the wings develop an extreme negative load, clearly visible. Before they actually have time to break, the Invader hits the ground, killing all aboard.
This example may be slightly different, in that the explosion must have contributed in lifting the tail.
IF this Airbus did loose its complete stab in one go, for whatever reason, the ensuing negative loads must have rendered the pilots immediately incapable of any action.
In a very early phase the fuse must have broken up, wings plus a small part of the fuse tumbling down, engines "flying" on.
As far as I can see most parts hit with little horizontal speed.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airline staff have revealed the cause of the disaster
The translated article that Kulverstukus provided, and commented on by Air Scotia is difficult to accept in its entirety, but after numerous reads I feel there may well be some validity to it.
It brings to question the safety culture within this airline. Issues such as training bonds, defect reporting, inexperienced cabin crew, all driven by an extreme low-cost, possibly almost bankrupt airline are certainly ingredients not to be overlooked by accident investigators.
It brings to question the safety culture within this airline. Issues such as training bonds, defect reporting, inexperienced cabin crew, all driven by an extreme low-cost, possibly almost bankrupt airline are certainly ingredients not to be overlooked by accident investigators.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An aircraft at 30.000ft pressurized to 8000ft breaks up and the fuselage tumbles the pax strapped into their seats near the fuselage break first suffer an explosive decompression then have debris from the more complete part of the fuselage ejected past them and into them as it is sucked into the 400kt airflow. Then the tumbling airframe leads to the open part of the fuselage intermittently facing into the 400kt air flow. I put it to you that the effects and injuries would be expected to look like being next to an explosion.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is the aft bulk cargo door still attached? I know we see the two R exit doors w the empennage, but wondered about bulk cargo.
Could the tail strike have relation to a poorly fitting aft bulk cargo door given its location on the 321?
Could failure of that particular door cause what we've seen?
Could the tail strike have relation to a poorly fitting aft bulk cargo door given its location on the 321?
Could failure of that particular door cause what we've seen?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian W, there was clearly stated that last rows paxes bodies bears severe burn marks (up to 90% of skin, scorched clothes etc.).
Bear in mind through that it's not direct words but some journalist's interpretation.
Bear in mind through that it's not direct words but some journalist's interpretation.
Breaking Leak from Egyptian source - engine blast. (via Al-Masry Al-Youm)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re:Door leaks etc
Door seals are a maintenance item. Could just be a timing coincidence. They would not have re-worked the door openings for a tailstrike. Plus, several references indicate Airbus did the tailstrike repair.
Also, doors are adjustable, and do require some attention from time to time.
Also, doors are adjustable, and do require some attention from time to time.
Originally Posted by Double Back
The "negative" G forces ... must have been incredible
Same forces have shorn off the fan. The only good bit is those over and in front of the wing (including the cockpit crew) never knew what hit them.
Last edited by andrasz; 4th Nov 2015 at 14:10.