Low Cost Carriers "CuttingCorners"!!
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PPRuNe in "The Times"
Selcted quotes:-
Micheal O'Leary, Ryanair's Chief Executive, described the report as nonsense and said that the respected whistle-blowing body which published it was "an internet chat room".
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[MOL] ... described the controller who filed the report as a "loony".
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[MOL] described CHIRP as "the equivalent of the PPrune chatroom", referring to the Professional Pilots Rumour Network website on which pilots are encouraged to exchange gossip about the industry under the protection of anonymity.
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David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International, said "Mr O'Leary's comments are very unfair and unwise. The CAA endorses CHIRP because it has brought many safety issues to light. It exposes the tips of icebergs and its value is demonstrated in exactly this kind of case when action is needed to prevent a problem from developing and resulting in a mistake that matters."
Mr. O'Leary said the incidents could never have happened as the controller described them in the report. "The report from one single air traffic controller is subjective nonsense with no basis in fact or evidence," he said. "The controller is duty bound by procedures to file a report to the Civil Aviation Authority. He's broken the law is he hasn't filed this concern with the CAA."
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Mr O'Leary denied that Ryanair pilots were under any more pressure than those employed by full service airlines such as British Airways. "You can't fly any faster or slower even if you wanted to because there is a two minute separation between planes going into landing.
"Our pilots are under less pressure because we don't operate to the busiest airports like Heathrow, Charles de Gaulle or Frankfurt. I don't even know how we would put our pilots under pressure. What do you do? Call him up as he's coming in to land?"
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(from another article)
Passengers who later complained to the Air Transport Users' Council found no help there either - Ryanair has refused to speak to the council for 18 months, describing it as "a bunch of halfwits".
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Ryanair, an airline that flew 11 million people last year, employs only four people in its customer service department. Getting through to complain in the first place is a major achievement.
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The number of complaints to the ATUC about low-cost airlines is on the increase, with Simon Evans, the chief executive, saying that Ryanair is "by far the worst violator".
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[MOL] ... described the controller who filed the report as a "loony".
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[MOL] described CHIRP as "the equivalent of the PPrune chatroom", referring to the Professional Pilots Rumour Network website on which pilots are encouraged to exchange gossip about the industry under the protection of anonymity.
...
David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International, said "Mr O'Leary's comments are very unfair and unwise. The CAA endorses CHIRP because it has brought many safety issues to light. It exposes the tips of icebergs and its value is demonstrated in exactly this kind of case when action is needed to prevent a problem from developing and resulting in a mistake that matters."
Mr. O'Leary said the incidents could never have happened as the controller described them in the report. "The report from one single air traffic controller is subjective nonsense with no basis in fact or evidence," he said. "The controller is duty bound by procedures to file a report to the Civil Aviation Authority. He's broken the law is he hasn't filed this concern with the CAA."
...
Mr O'Leary denied that Ryanair pilots were under any more pressure than those employed by full service airlines such as British Airways. "You can't fly any faster or slower even if you wanted to because there is a two minute separation between planes going into landing.
"Our pilots are under less pressure because we don't operate to the busiest airports like Heathrow, Charles de Gaulle or Frankfurt. I don't even know how we would put our pilots under pressure. What do you do? Call him up as he's coming in to land?"
...
(from another article)
Passengers who later complained to the Air Transport Users' Council found no help there either - Ryanair has refused to speak to the council for 18 months, describing it as "a bunch of halfwits".
...
Ryanair, an airline that flew 11 million people last year, employs only four people in its customer service department. Getting through to complain in the first place is a major achievement.
...
The number of complaints to the ATUC about low-cost airlines is on the increase, with Simon Evans, the chief executive, saying that Ryanair is "by far the worst violator".
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No real comment on the issue at hand. I've had my queries answered and anyone's post which I've found banal - namely Montgomery's, and WCB - have all been suitably answered by others.
A word to Danny, though:
And what is it that you expect, exactly? If you seek the level of conversation reserved for the armchair room in an Oxford College, then you should have called it the Professional Oxford Don Pilot's rumour network. What utopian dream did you have when you started this website? Are you to add personal opinions unless backed up by written confirmed evidence signed in triplicate by the source, two lawyers and a notary to the edict that we can't discuss politics or religion?????
Because that's the best way to go about it isn't it, Danny: it's the British way; If you don't air grievances and express opinions in public then the problems will go away.
I think maybe you'd have made a good recruitment officer for BA as they seem to want clones piloting their aircraft as well. You obviously don't or won't realise that different personalities are what makes life interesting. Perhaps, and it's only a suggestion, you could have a screening process based on psychometric testing to see if we all have the right temperament to post on your website.
You and David Blunkett should have cream teas together every Friday afternoon; you could learn a lot from each other.
A word to Danny, though:
And what is it that you expect, exactly? If you seek the level of conversation reserved for the armchair room in an Oxford College, then you should have called it the Professional Oxford Don Pilot's rumour network. What utopian dream did you have when you started this website? Are you to add personal opinions unless backed up by written confirmed evidence signed in triplicate by the source, two lawyers and a notary to the edict that we can't discuss politics or religion?????
Because that's the best way to go about it isn't it, Danny: it's the British way; If you don't air grievances and express opinions in public then the problems will go away.
I think maybe you'd have made a good recruitment officer for BA as they seem to want clones piloting their aircraft as well. You obviously don't or won't realise that different personalities are what makes life interesting. Perhaps, and it's only a suggestion, you could have a screening process based on psychometric testing to see if we all have the right temperament to post on your website.
You and David Blunkett should have cream teas together every Friday afternoon; you could learn a lot from each other.
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Interesting that a post on the ATC forum on the same subject has generated almost no response and this one has managed over 65 replies.
To save me re-typing can I just point you towards the ATC thread to see if it puts the original report in perspective.
Lying pilots
P.S. CHIRP is not a "safety" report as stated in the newspaper article. If it is dangerous or even potentially so, ATC must file a Mandatory Occurrence Report. CHIRP is just an opinion.
To save me re-typing can I just point you towards the ATC thread to see if it puts the original report in perspective.
Lying pilots
P.S. CHIRP is not a "safety" report as stated in the newspaper article. If it is dangerous or even potentially so, ATC must file a Mandatory Occurrence Report. CHIRP is just an opinion.
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Let's not kid ourselves on the basic issue, delay minimisation and avoidance is a pressure here and may help to explain why reports of this kind are filed.
Within the US, the same issues have cropped up for low cost carriers and are certainley ringing a few bells with people from the NTSB if not in the air on the ground as well !!!
Fast taxiway speeds....rushed pre flight checks
High landing/runway speeds.....see Burbank for details
Gate approaches....
Within the US, the same issues have cropped up for low cost carriers and are certainley ringing a few bells with people from the NTSB if not in the air on the ground as well !!!
Fast taxiway speeds....rushed pre flight checks
High landing/runway speeds.....see Burbank for details
Gate approaches....
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This is from the public pages of the BALPA website:
Commenting on The Times story today (‘Budget airline pilots accused of putting safety at risk’) Carolyn Evans, Technical Secretary of the British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA) said:
‘The recent report from an air traffic controller to the industry’s Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme (CHIRP) we believe to be aimed at one particular ‘no frills’ airline, ‘Ryanair – an Irish regulated airline with which BALPA has no formal arrangements.
‘Where we do have formal arrangements in place, and that is in virtually all UK airlines, including the ‘no frills’ carriers EasyJet, Go and Buzz, we find the report unfounded.
‘Most if not all major UK airports hold regular liaison meetings at which problems such as those described in the report can be discussed between Air Traffic Services and airline representatives and appropriate action taken.
‘The report states such occurrences to be the exception rather than the rule and raising awareness at such an early stage will ensure that any problems that have been identified as occurring in UK airspace will be immediately addressed and rectified.’
Not sure what to make of this one; comments anyone?
Commenting on The Times story today (‘Budget airline pilots accused of putting safety at risk’) Carolyn Evans, Technical Secretary of the British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA) said:
‘The recent report from an air traffic controller to the industry’s Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme (CHIRP) we believe to be aimed at one particular ‘no frills’ airline, ‘Ryanair – an Irish regulated airline with which BALPA has no formal arrangements.
‘Where we do have formal arrangements in place, and that is in virtually all UK airlines, including the ‘no frills’ carriers EasyJet, Go and Buzz, we find the report unfounded.
‘Most if not all major UK airports hold regular liaison meetings at which problems such as those described in the report can be discussed between Air Traffic Services and airline representatives and appropriate action taken.
‘The report states such occurrences to be the exception rather than the rule and raising awareness at such an early stage will ensure that any problems that have been identified as occurring in UK airspace will be immediately addressed and rectified.’
Not sure what to make of this one; comments anyone?
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to add another London Tma atco comment.
Thoroughly agree with expedite descent on all points - thanks for doing all that typing.
Hopefully the outcome of all this debate will be the eradication of ANY unhelpful comments to us from the cockpit.
It is exceptionally rare, I have had two arsey comments in 6 years but, I feel that now it is up to us to 1261 anything like this, stamping out any possible development of this 'problem'. The campaign against level busts by atc reporting all instances seems to has had the positive effect desired in markedly reducing the number of times it occurs.
With v.v.v.v.v. little exception the crews in and out of the Ltma are totally professional, even when we can tell in your voices that you think we are talking crap you still do it - blind loyalty !
A last point - if you can PLEASE make the effort to visit the centres, every single pilot who comes in will find out answers to all those " I've always wondered why you...." questions. Considering how vital our roles are to each other it is incredible how little face to face contact there is.
Thoroughly agree with expedite descent on all points - thanks for doing all that typing.
Hopefully the outcome of all this debate will be the eradication of ANY unhelpful comments to us from the cockpit.
It is exceptionally rare, I have had two arsey comments in 6 years but, I feel that now it is up to us to 1261 anything like this, stamping out any possible development of this 'problem'. The campaign against level busts by atc reporting all instances seems to has had the positive effect desired in markedly reducing the number of times it occurs.
With v.v.v.v.v. little exception the crews in and out of the Ltma are totally professional, even when we can tell in your voices that you think we are talking crap you still do it - blind loyalty !
A last point - if you can PLEASE make the effort to visit the centres, every single pilot who comes in will find out answers to all those " I've always wondered why you...." questions. Considering how vital our roles are to each other it is incredible how little face to face contact there is.
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Sorry have skimmed through but JEEZ but what a lot of discussion about nothing!
Speed is not the problem.
Look beyond that, safety is the issue.
How many accidents have the LCA's had? The Europeans ones please, as they are the topic under discussion.
If you actually examine quite critically the crew ratios of the LCA's to the Full service / charter carriers you may find that they have crews who are better rested, less fatigued and working, perhaps longer flying hours(more productive) than duty hours. This is simply Stelios bowing out with a flourish.
Bump up the share with spin nad then when the corportae ionvestors trash you drag it back down with spin.
Danny, summed it up quite nicely, so why dont we drop it before the real skeletons appear?
Speed is not the problem.
Look beyond that, safety is the issue.
How many accidents have the LCA's had? The Europeans ones please, as they are the topic under discussion.
If you actually examine quite critically the crew ratios of the LCA's to the Full service / charter carriers you may find that they have crews who are better rested, less fatigued and working, perhaps longer flying hours(more productive) than duty hours. This is simply Stelios bowing out with a flourish.
Bump up the share with spin nad then when the corportae ionvestors trash you drag it back down with spin.
Danny, summed it up quite nicely, so why dont we drop it before the real skeletons appear?
Its annoying to watch the BBC (as I type) broadcast people such as Gwyneth Dunwoody talking about CHIRP and Piloting matters with the scantest grasp of the issues. On the same day as the public watch sensationalist reports on national and local tv about the delays and 'misery' caused be continental strikes.
I fear the industry is in danger of witnessing a lazy public re-perception that air travel is not worth the bother.
A gloomy development for us all.
Time for some upbeat PA's methinks.
WWW
I fear the industry is in danger of witnessing a lazy public re-perception that air travel is not worth the bother.
A gloomy development for us all.
Time for some upbeat PA's methinks.
WWW
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Have you ever
A sobering thought for all of you who are having a go (no insinua tion intended) at the low costs.
1. Have you ever queried your position in traffic.
2. have you ever queried a speed restriction.
3 have you ever queried a holding instruction.
4 have you ever received an ATC instruction and taken it as being " in your own time".
5 have you ever questioned your slot.
6 have you ever asked for push without a ground crew.
7 have you asked for a ready message whilst still loading passengers.
8 have you ever asked for an early QSY because you believe it will lead to a shorter routing.
Our RADAR's are pretty good these days chaps, the information available to us show's us just what track/speed your flying and it has become just as much our job to React to that, as control it, so dont bull**** us that its just the low costs who are pushing the boundaries. I have yet to meet a pilot who has not said "When you say "that "we take it as meaning "this".
I have never had an easier day than today , no questions, no comments....perhaps we ought to put these reports out more often.
1. Have you ever queried your position in traffic.
2. have you ever queried a speed restriction.
3 have you ever queried a holding instruction.
4 have you ever received an ATC instruction and taken it as being " in your own time".
5 have you ever questioned your slot.
6 have you ever asked for push without a ground crew.
7 have you asked for a ready message whilst still loading passengers.
8 have you ever asked for an early QSY because you believe it will lead to a shorter routing.
Our RADAR's are pretty good these days chaps, the information available to us show's us just what track/speed your flying and it has become just as much our job to React to that, as control it, so dont bull**** us that its just the low costs who are pushing the boundaries. I have yet to meet a pilot who has not said "When you say "that "we take it as meaning "this".
I have never had an easier day than today , no questions, no comments....perhaps we ought to put these reports out more often.
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Not so long ago (within the last two weeks), I read a quote from MO'L where he said that one of the things that could wreck its growth was a major accident and yet he dismisses CHIRP as "an internet chatroom". Not terribly encouraging.
While looking into CRM issues recently for an article I'm writing (not in connection with FR), I was introduced to a model used by a major airline in its CRM: Prof. James Reason's Swiss Cheese model. Basically, this involves a study of the factors contributing to accidents on various levels from management right down. Each "cheese" involves a different level and theory goes that every accident can be traced to failures at each of the five levels - holes in the Swiss cheese, if you will. (This model, incidentally, is used among others by Australian air accident investigators).
Just reading what Prof. Reason said about the different cultures required to avoid accidents - an informed culture, a REPORTING culture (my emphasis), a just culture and a learning culture (to name just some). Looking at Prof. R's article in the FR context, it appears that a lot of these factors simply do not appear to be in place at FR. Would that be fair? Does anyone in FR wish to comment on Ryanair's CRM culture and how it works in practice? How tightly is it monitored by the IAA in practice (if at all?)
I'm more than ready to agree that Lo-cos are quite safe and personally, I have no problem flying with them, but it does concern me that there should be such a contemptuous attitude towards safety from the very top and what appears (from what I have read) to be a culture of fear among pilots, as far as reporting safety issues is concerned.
While looking into CRM issues recently for an article I'm writing (not in connection with FR), I was introduced to a model used by a major airline in its CRM: Prof. James Reason's Swiss Cheese model. Basically, this involves a study of the factors contributing to accidents on various levels from management right down. Each "cheese" involves a different level and theory goes that every accident can be traced to failures at each of the five levels - holes in the Swiss cheese, if you will. (This model, incidentally, is used among others by Australian air accident investigators).
Just reading what Prof. Reason said about the different cultures required to avoid accidents - an informed culture, a REPORTING culture (my emphasis), a just culture and a learning culture (to name just some). Looking at Prof. R's article in the FR context, it appears that a lot of these factors simply do not appear to be in place at FR. Would that be fair? Does anyone in FR wish to comment on Ryanair's CRM culture and how it works in practice? How tightly is it monitored by the IAA in practice (if at all?)
I'm more than ready to agree that Lo-cos are quite safe and personally, I have no problem flying with them, but it does concern me that there should be such a contemptuous attitude towards safety from the very top and what appears (from what I have read) to be a culture of fear among pilots, as far as reporting safety issues is concerned.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Wheely - I suspect there is no-one THAT perfect!
The point is, however, that it is from your profession that the observation on all this originated. The usual rabble are just joining in on the bandwagon as usual.
<perhaps we ought to put these reports out more often.>
I think you should.
The point is, however, that it is from your profession that the observation on all this originated. The usual rabble are just joining in on the bandwagon as usual.
<perhaps we ought to put these reports out more often.>
I think you should.
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Has M O'L opened his mouth just too far on this one? To berate the CHIRP system in such vitriolic terms does him no favours at all. Such confidential reporting systems are a key component of a the current safety management process for the industry as a whole. For M O'L to attack this in such a way will potentially damage Ryanair's reputation. Alongside the 1 millionth passenger ruling where his "hostile and aggressive" attitude were commented on by the judge - how long will Ryanair's shareholders back him or will he be forced to tone down his comments?
Last edited by brabazon; 20th Jun 2002 at 11:27.
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From FT.com:
How to make friends and influence people! 
The issue has led to some lively online debate between pilots on one of the industry's leading gossip websites, where most postings are anonymous. The consensus is that the problem is limited and may not be restricted to low-cost airlines.
"As far as I am aware, because a tiny minority of less enlightened pilots from 'any' airline may have had a paranoia-induced 'throwing of toys out of the pram' go at ATC [air traffic control], the vast majority of pilots in all airlines, including all the LCAs [low-cost airlines] are tarnished with the same brush by the usual sensationalising media luvvies," writes Danny Fyne, founder of the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
"As far as I am aware, because a tiny minority of less enlightened pilots from 'any' airline may have had a paranoia-induced 'throwing of toys out of the pram' go at ATC [air traffic control], the vast majority of pilots in all airlines, including all the LCAs [low-cost airlines] are tarnished with the same brush by the usual sensationalising media luvvies," writes Danny Fyne, founder of the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
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I wondered how long it would be before the CRM trendies joined in. Akerosid, swiss cheese the problem heh, drivel, no particular operator is guilty here, no pilots are fearful of making or filing reports it is simply a case of everyone wanting to save time and costs. Maybe in 1% of occasions someone upsets ATC, well thats life, this whole thing is getting completely out of hand especially when politicians and our favourite FLIGHT commentator get in on the act.
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We'll see.
It just looks to me, from what I've seen that the slices are lining up. This doesn't automatically result in an accident and hopefully it never will; what it does mean is that IF there is an accident, all those factors will usually be present.
Despite what MO'L said in his most recent BBC interview, there does not appear to be a culture which encourages safety related objections. I'd just like to see this issue addressed before an appalling accident occurs.
It just looks to me, from what I've seen that the slices are lining up. This doesn't automatically result in an accident and hopefully it never will; what it does mean is that IF there is an accident, all those factors will usually be present.
Despite what MO'L said in his most recent BBC interview, there does not appear to be a culture which encourages safety related objections. I'd just like to see this issue addressed before an appalling accident occurs.
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Lots of 'ifs' 'maybes' 'possibles', as usual hedging the bets in case you can say ‘I told you so’. RA is no different to all the other operators, just the current whipping boy. The CRM business is getting completely out of hand, another fad.
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I've read this discussion and the articles in the press about this with great interest. However, not being an expert, I don't understand everything that's being discussed here. I'd be very interested in talking to anyone who may want to talk to me. This would of course be on a completely confidential basis. Feel free to e-mail me.
Thanks,
Jon
Thanks,
Jon