Low Cost Carriers "CuttingCorners"!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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If we hav'nt got enough armchair / keyboard experts , we now have solicitors preaching on CRM and accident prevention. How's about we stay out of your office if you stay out of ours?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: London, England
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And you had the pleasure of my company on your jumpseat as well NigelOnDraft!
There should be more jumpseat rides for controllers, they are the only way to get valuable feedback!
There should be more jumpseat rides for controllers, they are the only way to get valuable feedback!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Bermuda Shorts and Cessna Caravans
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Dear Mr O'Leary
You seem to speak your mind, so here's mine:
You can stuff your opinions where the sun don't shine.
We work damned hard for all carriers and go the extra bit whether it's for a full cost carrier, a 3rd world carrier or even a low cost operator.
People take the pi$$, which no doubt is the trigger for the Chirp report. I, as a muddled, confused, subjective ATCO agree totally with the colleague who had the balls to voice his/her genuine fears to Chirp.
How dare you denegrate a publication as esteemed as Chirp. Mind you, anything which gets in the way of your self opinionated self adoration seems to suffer the same diatribe and treatment.
You have single handedly shattered any goodwill there was between ATCOs and your company.
Next time your Dublin - UK and Europe flights get stuck at FL190, don't go bleating that ATC aren't going out of their way to obtain higher levels, as from where I'm seeing things, I feel I'll subjectively make the decision to keep you down there.
Kindest regards
160
You seem to speak your mind, so here's mine:
You can stuff your opinions where the sun don't shine.
We work damned hard for all carriers and go the extra bit whether it's for a full cost carrier, a 3rd world carrier or even a low cost operator.
People take the pi$$, which no doubt is the trigger for the Chirp report. I, as a muddled, confused, subjective ATCO agree totally with the colleague who had the balls to voice his/her genuine fears to Chirp.
How dare you denegrate a publication as esteemed as Chirp. Mind you, anything which gets in the way of your self opinionated self adoration seems to suffer the same diatribe and treatment.
You have single handedly shattered any goodwill there was between ATCOs and your company.
Next time your Dublin - UK and Europe flights get stuck at FL190, don't go bleating that ATC aren't going out of their way to obtain higher levels, as from where I'm seeing things, I feel I'll subjectively make the decision to keep you down there.
Kindest regards
160
A fairly long trip from Africa to UK. Roberts, Dakar, Canaries, Casablanca, Lisbon ATCCs - no problem. We greet Madrid and are told that we'll have to descend from FL380 to FL280 at LOTEE as "You are not RVSM approved". We query this, stating that we certainly are RVSM approved. "It is not indicated on your flightplan" says Manuel. "Well it was filed with the correct RVSM-approval identifier and I can assure you that we were RVSM approved when we came down this way yesterday" I add. "Stand by. What is your ac type" We tell him. "Please advise your company to file correctly in future" grumbles the controller. We resist the temptation to enter into further conversation but just say "Roger. Confirm cleared direct LOTEE maintaining FL380?" "Affirm" he grudgingly replies.........
So sometimes it's not just aircrew who cause ill-feeling....
But the female controller who replaced this grumpy $od a few minutes later on the same frequency couldn't have been more charming!
So sometimes it's not just aircrew who cause ill-feeling....
But the female controller who replaced this grumpy $od a few minutes later on the same frequency couldn't have been more charming!
Join Date: Feb 2001
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How did he think you had got all the way across France at FL380 without being RVSM compliant?? Idiot!
It happens quite often that we get estimates by computer from Maastricht that indicate RVN (not approved) but the a/c is at FL340 or so. Usually there has been a corruption of data or it has been input incorrectly so the NAS computer assumes the worst case scenario. We always check with the aircraft when it calls but we usually assume that if it has got this far at that level then it must be approved.
It happens quite often that we get estimates by computer from Maastricht that indicate RVN (not approved) but the a/c is at FL340 or so. Usually there has been a corruption of data or it has been input incorrectly so the NAS computer assumes the worst case scenario. We always check with the aircraft when it calls but we usually assume that if it has got this far at that level then it must be approved.
No - we were going from Lisboa ATCC to Madrid ATCC. The error probably originated at Lungi airport whence we had departed; they are not all that used to RVSM down there! But Canaries had already asked - we'd been at FL330 in the Dakar area (having been too heavy to make FL370) and were asked whether we wanted FL320 or FL340. By then we could make FL380 - so that's where we'd been for the hour or so before Manuel queried us!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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charlie32's post reminded me of a posting I made last november and which I've noted below ....... no response was ever posted
quote ....
Air Rage? .......
"this happened about three weeks ago .... it does't matter where the airport was but the large aircraft was about to commence a west bound atlantic crossing .......
an Airbus 330 was waiting for line up clearance and a small aircraft was about to land .... the small aircraft decided to overshhoot and go around .... the airbus was given clearance to line up and then cleared for take off ..... after take off and during the climb out the airbus called the tower and said .....
"I feel I should mention this .... what are you guys running here?, an airfield or a flying club?"
....... the pilot then went on to say that he should have been given priority and the smaller aircraft made to make another approach ..... further remarks were made re. the fuel consumption of a large passenger aircraft holding on the ground versus a small non comercial aircraft ..... about this time the airbus had reached hand over altitude and was passed to another controller without response ......
meanwhile the tower was handling a landing 737 .... an L1011 and then a 747 freighter that missed the runway exit taxiway and had to backtrack causing a 5 minute delay to two more west bound 330's ....... a little while later a Galaxy enroute to the States from Germany diverted with smoke in the cockpit with all the associated emegency activity ....... I'm only telling you this because I felt so sorry for the poor bl$$dy ATC guy but also the airbus .... what a great way to start a trans atlantic crossing!"
end of post
I have to say that the above incident disturbed me greatly at the time
quote ....
Air Rage? .......
"this happened about three weeks ago .... it does't matter where the airport was but the large aircraft was about to commence a west bound atlantic crossing .......
an Airbus 330 was waiting for line up clearance and a small aircraft was about to land .... the small aircraft decided to overshhoot and go around .... the airbus was given clearance to line up and then cleared for take off ..... after take off and during the climb out the airbus called the tower and said .....
"I feel I should mention this .... what are you guys running here?, an airfield or a flying club?"
....... the pilot then went on to say that he should have been given priority and the smaller aircraft made to make another approach ..... further remarks were made re. the fuel consumption of a large passenger aircraft holding on the ground versus a small non comercial aircraft ..... about this time the airbus had reached hand over altitude and was passed to another controller without response ......
meanwhile the tower was handling a landing 737 .... an L1011 and then a 747 freighter that missed the runway exit taxiway and had to backtrack causing a 5 minute delay to two more west bound 330's ....... a little while later a Galaxy enroute to the States from Germany diverted with smoke in the cockpit with all the associated emegency activity ....... I'm only telling you this because I felt so sorry for the poor bl$$dy ATC guy but also the airbus .... what a great way to start a trans atlantic crossing!"
end of post
I have to say that the above incident disturbed me greatly at the time
Join Date: Mar 2001
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The company I work for will fail any pilot for busting, ignoring SLP or restrictions imposed on them by ATC, whether during a line check or LPC OPC in the simulator. This I believed to be the industry norm. Anybody treating ATC restrictions with disdain has no place in a cockpit. It terrifies me that this goes on, please tell me this is a windup.
However obviously in vary rare situations were complying with an ATC instruction will jeopardise the safety of the aircraft it will be prudent to disregard the instruction but you MUST tell ATC. i e radar heading into CB, collision avoidance.
My understanding of the SLP is that you are to be at the speed required 3nm prior to the SLP.
However obviously in vary rare situations were complying with an ATC instruction will jeopardise the safety of the aircraft it will be prudent to disregard the instruction but you MUST tell ATC. i e radar heading into CB, collision avoidance.
My understanding of the SLP is that you are to be at the speed required 3nm prior to the SLP.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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LCA safety
I've been reading this debate about the article in the Times, it's fascinating. However some of the people who have been contributing to the forum seem to be in the industry and obviously should know whether or not low-cost airlines ARE or ARE not endangering passengers by cutting corners. The press has focussed on the row between Ryanair and Easyjet but has not addressed the issue. Would anyone out there who works for an LCA have any views?
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to C Montgomery Burns and Wig Wag
You two seem to know quite a lot about this, if you have any more info to give me and would like to do so confidentially, email [email protected]
Join Date: Jun 2001
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marianne23
I work for a LCA as you call it. A major one.
The simple, clear and unambiguous answer is NO, we do not, and have not, and will never comprimise safety by cutting any corners whatsoever.
We aim to limit time on the ground between flights and keep the aircraft flying more sectors than do the frilly airlines (H(igh)CAs ??). All flights, from start to finish, are conducted in an identical fashion to the HCAs. Correct spreeds, heights and profiles etc. If given an instruction from ATC - we follow it, end of story.
Occaisionally we might ask if a more direct routing is available - as does everybody I might add - if so we take, if not then no problem.
Approach speeds are straight out of the book, only varied following ATC request. Stable approach parameters must be met by 1000' on finals - if not then Go Around and do it again.
There is no variance from the above principles either encouraged or allowed. Any pilot deliberately deviating from the above will have a limited time with the company - and rightly so.
Finally, if any pilot, without clearance, flew his aircraft within controlled airspace on a routing for which he had no clearance (particularly in a busy terminal area):
a: Everyone would know about it due to the following R/T exchange
b: An MOR would almost certainly be filed
c: He/She had better be a fast talker as 'tea and biscuits' with the Chief Pilot would surely follow swiftly
d: P45 would be available for collection
I work for a LCA as you call it. A major one.
The simple, clear and unambiguous answer is NO, we do not, and have not, and will never comprimise safety by cutting any corners whatsoever.
We aim to limit time on the ground between flights and keep the aircraft flying more sectors than do the frilly airlines (H(igh)CAs ??). All flights, from start to finish, are conducted in an identical fashion to the HCAs. Correct spreeds, heights and profiles etc. If given an instruction from ATC - we follow it, end of story.
Occaisionally we might ask if a more direct routing is available - as does everybody I might add - if so we take, if not then no problem.
Approach speeds are straight out of the book, only varied following ATC request. Stable approach parameters must be met by 1000' on finals - if not then Go Around and do it again.
There is no variance from the above principles either encouraged or allowed. Any pilot deliberately deviating from the above will have a limited time with the company - and rightly so.
Finally, if any pilot, without clearance, flew his aircraft within controlled airspace on a routing for which he had no clearance (particularly in a busy terminal area):
a: Everyone would know about it due to the following R/T exchange
b: An MOR would almost certainly be filed
c: He/She had better be a fast talker as 'tea and biscuits' with the Chief Pilot would surely follow swiftly
d: P45 would be available for collection
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FlapsOne:
Thanks for full reply, this seems to be the consensus but then again I was curious given the recent turmoil in the press (any idea why the ATC who "blew the whistle" did so?) I'm a consumer which means a) I was concerned and b) I don't understand most of the abbreviations you use!!!
Thanks,
M
Thanks for full reply, this seems to be the consensus but then again I was curious given the recent turmoil in the press (any idea why the ATC who "blew the whistle" did so?) I'm a consumer which means a) I was concerned and b) I don't understand most of the abbreviations you use!!!
Thanks,
M
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Overheard on MAN ATCC couple days ago
Irish LCA requesting left 20 to avoid WX
MAN ATCC 'OK, WX avoidance approved'
MAN ATCC 'UK charter airline would you like to deviate
for the WX?'
UK charter airline ' Negative, pause...... no WX here!'
Nuff said.
Irish LCA requesting left 20 to avoid WX
MAN ATCC 'OK, WX avoidance approved'
MAN ATCC 'UK charter airline would you like to deviate
for the WX?'
UK charter airline ' Negative, pause...... no WX here!'
Nuff said.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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"Cross SLP or 2 minutes before holding fix at 250kts or less when at FL140 or below" Who the F*** dreamed up that masterpiece of yuck-speak?.(The SLP invariably being "10 before SNOTTY"or some such)
Confused? You should be!
Confused? You should be!
Join Date: Jun 2001
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marianne23
Sorry for the jargon abbreviations - here goes:
R/T - Radio Telephony (the radio)
ATC - those who we speak to on the R/T
MOR - Mandatory Occurrence Report
P45 - Get another Job!
Hope that helps
R/T - Radio Telephony (the radio)
ATC - those who we speak to on the R/T
MOR - Mandatory Occurrence Report
P45 - Get another Job!
Hope that helps
PPRuNe Person
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flanker
a. I wouldn't have said it was a cheap shot
b. nothing proves anything except in equations and courts of law
c. both the airline in question and the one our esteemed leader is employed by have, or have had, a reputation for this kind of sneaky corner-cutting.
But airliners were made to travel in straight lines, so who can blame them for trying?
I heard a Irish LCA asking to cut the corner of the Welsh MTA the other day. Air 2 bob regularly invent their own SW departure from BHX, but so does Brymon. So what?
a. I wouldn't have said it was a cheap shot
b. nothing proves anything except in equations and courts of law
c. both the airline in question and the one our esteemed leader is employed by have, or have had, a reputation for this kind of sneaky corner-cutting.
But airliners were made to travel in straight lines, so who can blame them for trying?
I heard a Irish LCA asking to cut the corner of the Welsh MTA the other day. Air 2 bob regularly invent their own SW departure from BHX, but so does Brymon. So what?