Low Cost Carriers "CuttingCorners"!!
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For those pilots who haven't done it, may I suggest the tour of West Drayton and your local Tower will show why we have the speed limits and the pressures ATC are under....you even get a go at the ATC sim so you can see how easy it is( or not!)
I'ts a pity one or two spoil things by their attitude
I'ts a pity one or two spoil things by their attitude
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Jaun Huw Nose
You are quite correct, I am sure for many of us a tour of ATC would be well worthwhile, but, many controllers nowadays have a woefully inadequate knowledge of aircraft capabilities and operational performance. Remember that with TCAS we have a much bigger picture than before. I have the utmost respect for the role of an Air Traffic Controller. Let us just remember though that the safety of an aircraft and it's passengers rests with the pilot, period. I regret to have to inform you that one or two controllers also spoil things 'by their attitude'. That is a fact of life, there are bad eggs in every basket. I would love to see someone from ATC in a simulator with bells ringing and everything else that we have do deal with. You can't say that any one party is to blame. IMHO the blame lies firmly with a fare paying public who want something for nothing and then complain when it doesn't work out. One day, hopefully in the not too distant future and without loss of life, they will find out that you can't have everything in life !
You are quite correct, I am sure for many of us a tour of ATC would be well worthwhile, but, many controllers nowadays have a woefully inadequate knowledge of aircraft capabilities and operational performance. Remember that with TCAS we have a much bigger picture than before. I have the utmost respect for the role of an Air Traffic Controller. Let us just remember though that the safety of an aircraft and it's passengers rests with the pilot, period. I regret to have to inform you that one or two controllers also spoil things 'by their attitude'. That is a fact of life, there are bad eggs in every basket. I would love to see someone from ATC in a simulator with bells ringing and everything else that we have do deal with. You can't say that any one party is to blame. IMHO the blame lies firmly with a fare paying public who want something for nothing and then complain when it doesn't work out. One day, hopefully in the not too distant future and without loss of life, they will find out that you can't have everything in life !
Everybody is entitled to their opinion (including the press!!) but surely what counts are the FACTS!!
How often are the SLPs etc being busted and by whom and WHY?
Hysterical media reports do little to further the cause of flight safety - remember they never let the facts get in the way of a good story!
I haven't read a newspaper for four months now neither have I watched the news or listened to a radio news bulletin. Don't worry - if we get invaded the police will come knocking at the door!
How often are the SLPs etc being busted and by whom and WHY?
Hysterical media reports do little to further the cause of flight safety - remember they never let the facts get in the way of a good story!
I haven't read a newspaper for four months now neither have I watched the news or listened to a radio news bulletin. Don't worry - if we get invaded the police will come knocking at the door!
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expediteDescent;- yours was one of the most lucid and sensible responses I have seen on this site! What a shame lst year put an end to liaison flights where ATC personnel could sit with us in the flt deck and iron out differences. Unfortunately most of us drivers are now so worked to the limit (especially in the lca`s) that going to LATCC or the tower is no longer an option.
As for the "story", I find tarring all LCA`s with the "Hurry, Hurry" brush as offensive as saying all street crime is done by xxxxx`s, yyyyy`s have slitty eyes, and all scandinavian women go like bunnies. The majority of incidents in the LTN and STN patterns being attributed to LCA`s might perhaps be down to the fact that they are in the vast majority in the airspace!
I find the standard check in by MANY pilots of any airline "xyz 111 FLxx to yyy any speed control?" squirmingly embarrassing every time I hear it, and try to educate the guys I fly with accordingly. And I fly with an LCO out of LTN, with a very safety concious company. Speed cameras on the taxiways on a random basis may find the true culprits! ( and I wonder how much the newspaper got paid by the flag carriers for placing the story??!!)
As for the "story", I find tarring all LCA`s with the "Hurry, Hurry" brush as offensive as saying all street crime is done by xxxxx`s, yyyyy`s have slitty eyes, and all scandinavian women go like bunnies. The majority of incidents in the LTN and STN patterns being attributed to LCA`s might perhaps be down to the fact that they are in the vast majority in the airspace!
I find the standard check in by MANY pilots of any airline "xyz 111 FLxx to yyy any speed control?" squirmingly embarrassing every time I hear it, and try to educate the guys I fly with accordingly. And I fly with an LCO out of LTN, with a very safety concious company. Speed cameras on the taxiways on a random basis may find the true culprits! ( and I wonder how much the newspaper got paid by the flag carriers for placing the story??!!)
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Faster the better?
Pre September 11th, I spent many sectors on FRA jumpseats. All the approaches into Dublin were at 300kts, down to 12DME(11 if the hushkits were fitted). The crew were always professionals and nobody had to go around. Seemed very efficient too. What is wrong with reducing speed from 300+kts, to threshold speed, in the shortest possible distance? Think of the fuel savings!
Could it be that this kind of flying is a little too demanding for the average, non-LCA pilot!?
Could it be that this kind of flying is a little too demanding for the average, non-LCA pilot!?
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Tw@t,
If you think that 300 kts is the most economical speed in the pattern perhaps you should take a quick look in the books. Sounds like the Essex girl’s excuse for speeding, “ I had to go quick so I could get there before I ran out of petrol!”
If you think that 300 kts is the most economical speed in the pattern perhaps you should take a quick look in the books. Sounds like the Essex girl’s excuse for speeding, “ I had to go quick so I could get there before I ran out of petrol!”
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"we are all pilots and do the same basic job to the best of our ability and training with safety foremost. Once safety has been taken care of we can then apply punctuality and customer service. "
This report seems to cast a giant shadow over this notion.As it comes from a controller and was addressed to a highly reputable authority,I see no reason to doubt it.I've been in aviation 30 years and have seen a whole lot of changes.Most of them bad.In truth,despite all the technological advances that have been made,the golden age of flying has well and truly gone now.It disturbs me when I hear of pilots questioning or even disregarding a controller.The pilot-controller relationship is at the very core of flight safety.Its sacrosanct.Cut-throat tactics in the boardroom is one thing but when it filters down to the flt deck,disaster is just around the corner.Valujet discovered this when it was too late.And its not only low-cost carriers.SIA has a reputation for putting its pilots in an impossible corner.They paid the price in Taiwan a couple of years back.They survived because they're big.
Low-cost carriers can work;SWA is the prime example.Why?Because the low-cost mentality is carefully applied to only those departments which are exclusively economically-driven.Flight operations is not,and as such no attempt is made to instill such a lethal ethos.I see that Jet Blue is turning out to be a pretty good blueprint.
When you hear about pilots scrambling for a jumpseat to deadhead for a flight,it makes you wonder.NO.You book the pilot and his crew the required number of seats.That way you have a happy and relaxed crew.And a relaxed crew is a safe crew.You throw in a row with a ticket agent two hours before the guy takes a flight up,and you've got trouble.
When you hear of pilots too afraid to ring the CP and say "We've got a typhoon here,I'm not happy with things,I'm delaying the flight until I am happy",you realise that somewhere along the line somebody lost the plot.
This report seems to cast a giant shadow over this notion.As it comes from a controller and was addressed to a highly reputable authority,I see no reason to doubt it.I've been in aviation 30 years and have seen a whole lot of changes.Most of them bad.In truth,despite all the technological advances that have been made,the golden age of flying has well and truly gone now.It disturbs me when I hear of pilots questioning or even disregarding a controller.The pilot-controller relationship is at the very core of flight safety.Its sacrosanct.Cut-throat tactics in the boardroom is one thing but when it filters down to the flt deck,disaster is just around the corner.Valujet discovered this when it was too late.And its not only low-cost carriers.SIA has a reputation for putting its pilots in an impossible corner.They paid the price in Taiwan a couple of years back.They survived because they're big.
Low-cost carriers can work;SWA is the prime example.Why?Because the low-cost mentality is carefully applied to only those departments which are exclusively economically-driven.Flight operations is not,and as such no attempt is made to instill such a lethal ethos.I see that Jet Blue is turning out to be a pretty good blueprint.
When you hear about pilots scrambling for a jumpseat to deadhead for a flight,it makes you wonder.NO.You book the pilot and his crew the required number of seats.That way you have a happy and relaxed crew.And a relaxed crew is a safe crew.You throw in a row with a ticket agent two hours before the guy takes a flight up,and you've got trouble.
When you hear of pilots too afraid to ring the CP and say "We've got a typhoon here,I'm not happy with things,I'm delaying the flight until I am happy",you realise that somewhere along the line somebody lost the plot.
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expediteDescent,
As a Pilot I understand your concerns. I agree that being a 330kts 2NM before a SLP wont make you be exactly at 250KTS by that point. In most cases, The aircraft autopilot will still be bugging down the speed at or after the SLP but at least the aircraft is decellerating. Same goes if the pilot was manually controlling speed. He'd bug down either AT or slightly before SLP to be decelerating. Asking if theare is any speed control is just trying his luck to maintain high speed approach subject to traffic. I'm not trying to make any excuses and I understand that it's not exactly precision flying but shouldn't it be Ok if there is a little bit of a buffer at SLP's?
Another thing is controllers seem to ask for speed based on what they want for aircraft Ground Speed. But aircraft would be flying to Indicated airspeed at best. But if all aircraft were flying IAS proportonately then it shouldn't be a problem.
Cheers.
(sorry about spelling)
As a Pilot I understand your concerns. I agree that being a 330kts 2NM before a SLP wont make you be exactly at 250KTS by that point. In most cases, The aircraft autopilot will still be bugging down the speed at or after the SLP but at least the aircraft is decellerating. Same goes if the pilot was manually controlling speed. He'd bug down either AT or slightly before SLP to be decelerating. Asking if theare is any speed control is just trying his luck to maintain high speed approach subject to traffic. I'm not trying to make any excuses and I understand that it's not exactly precision flying but shouldn't it be Ok if there is a little bit of a buffer at SLP's?
Another thing is controllers seem to ask for speed based on what they want for aircraft Ground Speed. But aircraft would be flying to Indicated airspeed at best. But if all aircraft were flying IAS proportonately then it shouldn't be a problem.
Cheers.
(sorry about spelling)
Any media or attorney could find that a crew flew at .79 Mach instead of an assigned or standard .76 (above FL290) and determine that the crew "disregarded ATC instructions" (or failed [forgot] to notify), whether the flying pilot noticed the airspeed indicator increase or was slow to double check an extra time or two.
Often, when we tell US ATC that we are cruising fast due to delays, they don't care anyway.
Is the British press really so desperate for a caption to grab your attention? Are events in Afghanistan and mass murder in Israel just cliche by now?
Often, when we tell US ATC that we are cruising fast due to delays, they don't care anyway.
Is the British press really so desperate for a caption to grab your attention? Are events in Afghanistan and mass murder in Israel just cliche by now?
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There is unfortunately a trend amongst all operators to fly high speed approaches. The request 'any speed control' must grate with many controllers, the question should be 'what speed would you like' Ignition C, no media in the world matches the USA on sheer banality.
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BTB
You make some sensible remarks and then go and make yourself look stupid with your last sentence.
Full service airlines are not trying to destroy LCA's just trying to compete, that business. The idea they would have a hand in this report is just plain dumb.
You make some sensible remarks and then go and make yourself look stupid with your last sentence.
Full service airlines are not trying to destroy LCA's just trying to compete, that business. The idea they would have a hand in this report is just plain dumb.
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In that case I take it back. This is an old non-story dug up fom a months-old Chirp. I acknowledge that under no circumstances would any traditional airline try to discredit the LCOs.
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It's probably all been said before, I've been 30 years in ATC and I think it has.....
I work at a LTMA airfield and I've never seen any evidence to provoke me into thinking that LCAs operate in any way differently to other carriers, different pilots on different days will operate differently! Different ATCOs on different days will operate differently. For many different resons, I'm not going to spell those reasons out, you are all intelligent beings. (It says here)
Because someone submits a CHIRP report doesn't mean there is necessarily any trend in LCA operations, it's only one report from an individual.
However were there to be a number of such reports then obviously more credence would have to be given to the issue.
I do have a concern however and the issue is much broader and more general...if every time a new manager is appointed to an aviation organisation and his remit is to save money ( albeit without jeopardising safety) is it inevitable that more pressure is brought to bear on those people for safety.
There may not be a direct link between cost cutting and operational safety but does this continuous drive for "efficiency" not inevitably lead to pressures upon safety in an indirect manner.
Just my own hobbyhorse..........
I work at a LTMA airfield and I've never seen any evidence to provoke me into thinking that LCAs operate in any way differently to other carriers, different pilots on different days will operate differently! Different ATCOs on different days will operate differently. For many different resons, I'm not going to spell those reasons out, you are all intelligent beings. (It says here)
Because someone submits a CHIRP report doesn't mean there is necessarily any trend in LCA operations, it's only one report from an individual.
However were there to be a number of such reports then obviously more credence would have to be given to the issue.
I do have a concern however and the issue is much broader and more general...if every time a new manager is appointed to an aviation organisation and his remit is to save money ( albeit without jeopardising safety) is it inevitable that more pressure is brought to bear on those people for safety.
There may not be a direct link between cost cutting and operational safety but does this continuous drive for "efficiency" not inevitably lead to pressures upon safety in an indirect manner.
Just my own hobbyhorse..........
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expeditedescent
your comment about speed control were very interesting. However you should keep in mind that the 737 (the LCA workhorse) at 250 kts, iddle power, speedbrakes deploy is not descending very fast. In LTN and STN, if we are high and then given a shortcut, the only way to come back on our profile and be stabilised when intercepting the glide (from below if possible) is to expedite the descent by increasing speed and then slowing down at the platform altitude.
In the other way, if we are kept high because of traffic or airspace restriction, we have to slow down to typically 210 Kts in order to have the capability to expedite our descent by increasing speed to 250 Kts and once again to come back to our profile,which is paramount to achieve a stabilised approach.
I do believe that pilots are more or less completly ignorant of your constraint. Are ATC aware about the limited manoeuverability of a big jet ?
Finally I find LTN a very challenging place to go (not because of the ground handling only !) but we never know what we gonna get in term of vector. (short base, all the way via Lorel ?...)
You guys do a great job, but maybe we need a little more communication.
your comment about speed control were very interesting. However you should keep in mind that the 737 (the LCA workhorse) at 250 kts, iddle power, speedbrakes deploy is not descending very fast. In LTN and STN, if we are high and then given a shortcut, the only way to come back on our profile and be stabilised when intercepting the glide (from below if possible) is to expedite the descent by increasing speed and then slowing down at the platform altitude.
In the other way, if we are kept high because of traffic or airspace restriction, we have to slow down to typically 210 Kts in order to have the capability to expedite our descent by increasing speed to 250 Kts and once again to come back to our profile,which is paramount to achieve a stabilised approach.
I do believe that pilots are more or less completly ignorant of your constraint. Are ATC aware about the limited manoeuverability of a big jet ?
Finally I find LTN a very challenging place to go (not because of the ground handling only !) but we never know what we gonna get in term of vector. (short base, all the way via Lorel ?...)
You guys do a great job, but maybe we need a little more communication.
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Now lets get this right an ATCO, who presumably is on the receiving end of frequent argie-bargie with LCA's, amongst others, decides that about the only thing he can do, if it isn't "MORable" is to speak his/her mind via CHIRP.
OK, since being available on-line everyone and his gran will have access but at least the point is powerfully made in an open forum. Now if as a result of all of this hullabaloo there are internal memos/emails sent within certain airlines reminding flight deck crew of their responsibilities/obligations with regard to ATC instructions, or pressures removed regading time keeping- then job done - ATCO's are then returned to their (fonts permitting) semi-normal happy, contented state and well done CHIRPS
so WHAT IS THE PROBLEM????
After all, some iffy press regarding safety procedures is better than an assortment of B737 components spread all over several adjaceent fields in the Home Counties.
OK, since being available on-line everyone and his gran will have access but at least the point is powerfully made in an open forum. Now if as a result of all of this hullabaloo there are internal memos/emails sent within certain airlines reminding flight deck crew of their responsibilities/obligations with regard to ATC instructions, or pressures removed regading time keeping- then job done - ATCO's are then returned to their (fonts permitting) semi-normal happy, contented state and well done CHIRPS
so WHAT IS THE PROBLEM????
After all, some iffy press regarding safety procedures is better than an assortment of B737 components spread all over several adjaceent fields in the Home Counties.
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I operate out of a regional "international" airport. In the past two months or so I have witnessed several angry exchanges initiated by pilots.
Querying why "sunday flyers" are alowed to get in the way, asking after ATCO intitated go around "who is going to pay my fuel bill?" and arguing about ATCO decision to allow another carrier to use opposite runway in calm conditions "If you can't use two runways efficiently you shouldn't try".
This degree of dissent gives concern for the state of mind of the individuals concerned and is bad airmanship and could lead to more important transmissions being delayed.
The examples above were not related by any means soley to low cost operators. Perhaps a study is needed to quantify the problem and a strategy needed to deal with the phenomenon of "air rage".
Perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on this aspect of communication in CRM.
Querying why "sunday flyers" are alowed to get in the way, asking after ATCO intitated go around "who is going to pay my fuel bill?" and arguing about ATCO decision to allow another carrier to use opposite runway in calm conditions "If you can't use two runways efficiently you shouldn't try".
This degree of dissent gives concern for the state of mind of the individuals concerned and is bad airmanship and could lead to more important transmissions being delayed.
The examples above were not related by any means soley to low cost operators. Perhaps a study is needed to quantify the problem and a strategy needed to deal with the phenomenon of "air rage".
Perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on this aspect of communication in CRM.
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To all the pilots who have responded to my comments, thank you.
I am a little concerned by a few things:
1: From QNH1013
"I agree that being a 330kts 2NM before a SLP wont make you be exactly at 250KTS by that point. In most cases, The aircraft autopilot will still be bugging down the speed at or after the SLP but at least the aircraft is decellerating. Same goes if the pilot was manually controlling speed. He'd bug down either AT or slightly before SLP to be decelerating. Asking if theare is any speed control is just trying his luck to maintain high speed approach subject to traffic. I'm not trying to make any excuses and I understand that it's not exactly precision flying but shouldn't it be Ok if there is a little bit of a buffer at SLP's?"
I am surprised by this attitude that SLP's do not seem to matter.
SLP's are in place for a number of reasons, one of the main ones that gets overlooked is to slow traffic down when entering a complex and busy traffic situation. By bombing through CLIPY at 300+kts you are compunding the NW Deps controllers problems and workload.
The whole point of the SLP is that you CROSS it at the stated speed, not gradually wind down after you have passed it.
I am astonished that pilots seem to treat SLP's with complete disdain.........Would you say be given a descent clearance to FL150 L by CLIPY snd then waffle past CLIPY at 190 in a gentle descent?
No........so why SLP's?
It is simple compliance with the rules of the STAR. And I hate to say it is non-negotaible.....unless you have been so advised by ATC.
The carefree attitude that SLP's can be ignored and treated as an incovenience worries me.......what is next?
2: "Another thing is controllers seem to ask for speed based on what they want for aircraft Ground Speed. But aircraft would be flying to Indicated airspeed at best. But if all aircraft were flying IAS proportonately then it shouldn't be a problem. "
I have never in my operational experience come across this. I have never heard any controller make any reference to groundspeed.
We do have groundspeed displayed on our radar in TC, and it is obvious to us when a pilot is telling porkies about their speed.
Example from not long ago:
2 a/c inbound to EGSS........number 1 given 280+ with a groundspeed of about 315kts.....the second aircraft given 250kts showing a groundspeed of 310kts...............???????
To acm:
1: "However you should keep in mind that the 737 (the LCA workhorse) at 250 kts, iddle power, speedbrakes deploy is not descending very fast. In LTN and STN, if we are high and then given a shortcut, the only way to come back on our profile and be stabilised when intercepting the glide (from below if possible) is to expedite the descent by increasing speed and then slowing down at the platform altitude."
I have to say in this case refuse the shortcut........
Speed control is only ever applied for a reason....the main one is separation. If you wish to compromise on that, there is little I can do.
2: "In the other way, if we are kept high because of traffic or airspace restriction, we have to slow down to typically 210 Kts in order to have the capability to expedite our descent by increasing speed to 250 Kts and once again to come back to our profile,which is paramount to achieve a stabilised approach. "
If you cannot fly the speed requested by ATC please advise us, then we can do someting about it.......what I have a problem with is pilots in a sequence who decide to apply their own speed control whilst not telling anyone, and having the plane 5 miles behind him hoovering up.
3: "I do believe that pilots are more or less completly ignorant of your constraint. Are ATC aware about the limited manoeuverability of a big jet ? "
No not really, we all know aircraft cannot go down and slow down.....however as I stated earlier speed control is applied for a reason, not simply to cause you problems.
I have also found almost any jet seems to be very manouverable when offered a direct routeing or a base leg
"Finally I find LTN a very challenging place to go (not because of the ground handling only !) but we never know what we gonna get in term of vector. (short base, all the way via Lorel ?...) "
All pilots should expect to fly the full LOREL procedure.
If a shortcut is offered, you have the absolute right to refuse it, if you feel that your aircraft's approach/safety will be compromised. Shortcuts are a bonus and should not be expected as the norm.
We are very sympathetic that the procedures into GW and SS are less than ideal, but sadly we all have to work with them.....trust me they cause us a lot of problems. If anyone can give us some more airspace to the North of EGSS, it will be gratefully accepted !!
In all, I must admit to being stunned at some who believe that speed control and speed limit points are open to thier own interpretation. There is never any question of pilots adopting their own headings or levels, and restrictions are complied with religously......so why is speed not given the same treatment?
I agree with other contributors that this kind of debate is exactly what is needed....hopefully it will open eyes on both sides.
I am a little concerned by a few things:
1: From QNH1013
"I agree that being a 330kts 2NM before a SLP wont make you be exactly at 250KTS by that point. In most cases, The aircraft autopilot will still be bugging down the speed at or after the SLP but at least the aircraft is decellerating. Same goes if the pilot was manually controlling speed. He'd bug down either AT or slightly before SLP to be decelerating. Asking if theare is any speed control is just trying his luck to maintain high speed approach subject to traffic. I'm not trying to make any excuses and I understand that it's not exactly precision flying but shouldn't it be Ok if there is a little bit of a buffer at SLP's?"
I am surprised by this attitude that SLP's do not seem to matter.
SLP's are in place for a number of reasons, one of the main ones that gets overlooked is to slow traffic down when entering a complex and busy traffic situation. By bombing through CLIPY at 300+kts you are compunding the NW Deps controllers problems and workload.
The whole point of the SLP is that you CROSS it at the stated speed, not gradually wind down after you have passed it.
I am astonished that pilots seem to treat SLP's with complete disdain.........Would you say be given a descent clearance to FL150 L by CLIPY snd then waffle past CLIPY at 190 in a gentle descent?
No........so why SLP's?
It is simple compliance with the rules of the STAR. And I hate to say it is non-negotaible.....unless you have been so advised by ATC.
The carefree attitude that SLP's can be ignored and treated as an incovenience worries me.......what is next?
2: "Another thing is controllers seem to ask for speed based on what they want for aircraft Ground Speed. But aircraft would be flying to Indicated airspeed at best. But if all aircraft were flying IAS proportonately then it shouldn't be a problem. "
I have never in my operational experience come across this. I have never heard any controller make any reference to groundspeed.
We do have groundspeed displayed on our radar in TC, and it is obvious to us when a pilot is telling porkies about their speed.
Example from not long ago:
2 a/c inbound to EGSS........number 1 given 280+ with a groundspeed of about 315kts.....the second aircraft given 250kts showing a groundspeed of 310kts...............???????
To acm:
1: "However you should keep in mind that the 737 (the LCA workhorse) at 250 kts, iddle power, speedbrakes deploy is not descending very fast. In LTN and STN, if we are high and then given a shortcut, the only way to come back on our profile and be stabilised when intercepting the glide (from below if possible) is to expedite the descent by increasing speed and then slowing down at the platform altitude."
I have to say in this case refuse the shortcut........
Speed control is only ever applied for a reason....the main one is separation. If you wish to compromise on that, there is little I can do.
2: "In the other way, if we are kept high because of traffic or airspace restriction, we have to slow down to typically 210 Kts in order to have the capability to expedite our descent by increasing speed to 250 Kts and once again to come back to our profile,which is paramount to achieve a stabilised approach. "
If you cannot fly the speed requested by ATC please advise us, then we can do someting about it.......what I have a problem with is pilots in a sequence who decide to apply their own speed control whilst not telling anyone, and having the plane 5 miles behind him hoovering up.
3: "I do believe that pilots are more or less completly ignorant of your constraint. Are ATC aware about the limited manoeuverability of a big jet ? "
No not really, we all know aircraft cannot go down and slow down.....however as I stated earlier speed control is applied for a reason, not simply to cause you problems.
I have also found almost any jet seems to be very manouverable when offered a direct routeing or a base leg
"Finally I find LTN a very challenging place to go (not because of the ground handling only !) but we never know what we gonna get in term of vector. (short base, all the way via Lorel ?...) "
All pilots should expect to fly the full LOREL procedure.
If a shortcut is offered, you have the absolute right to refuse it, if you feel that your aircraft's approach/safety will be compromised. Shortcuts are a bonus and should not be expected as the norm.
We are very sympathetic that the procedures into GW and SS are less than ideal, but sadly we all have to work with them.....trust me they cause us a lot of problems. If anyone can give us some more airspace to the North of EGSS, it will be gratefully accepted !!
In all, I must admit to being stunned at some who believe that speed control and speed limit points are open to thier own interpretation. There is never any question of pilots adopting their own headings or levels, and restrictions are complied with religously......so why is speed not given the same treatment?
I agree with other contributors that this kind of debate is exactly what is needed....hopefully it will open eyes on both sides.
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Drat !
Forgot to mention......
Just taking CLIPY as an example...........
The turn from CLIPY to BKY is quite a sharp one.
If you make the turn at 250kts, you are going to be established inbound BKY nice and quickly.
If you cross it at 330kts and make a steaming great wide turn..........
You get very adjacent to the BNN hold, and if there is traffic in the hold at FL150 (very common between 7-8am), things start to look a bit nasty.
This is just one example of many as to why the SLP is where it is and how important it is to cross it at the speed stated.
Not obvious in isolation, however it is the bigger picture where it becomes important.
Just a point to consider......ignore SLP's at your peril. In the flightdeck you are not lucky enough to have the overall picture of what is happening, by taking the rules into your own hands, you are IMHO playing an extremely dangerous game.
Retreats humbly
Forgot to mention......
Just taking CLIPY as an example...........
The turn from CLIPY to BKY is quite a sharp one.
If you make the turn at 250kts, you are going to be established inbound BKY nice and quickly.
If you cross it at 330kts and make a steaming great wide turn..........
You get very adjacent to the BNN hold, and if there is traffic in the hold at FL150 (very common between 7-8am), things start to look a bit nasty.
This is just one example of many as to why the SLP is where it is and how important it is to cross it at the speed stated.
Not obvious in isolation, however it is the bigger picture where it becomes important.
Just a point to consider......ignore SLP's at your peril. In the flightdeck you are not lucky enough to have the overall picture of what is happening, by taking the rules into your own hands, you are IMHO playing an extremely dangerous game.
Retreats humbly