Low Cost Carriers "CuttingCorners"!!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Hereford, UK
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1) Everyone knows the whole thing is about Ryanair.
2) Ezy and Go pilots have no on time bonuses or performance related incentives - do Ryanair?
3) If you are not on time in Go or Ezy nobody ever asks why. Do they in FRA?
4) I was always under the impression that the low costs know that the first one to have a serious accident will be the first one to go bust.
5) The speed of heat until 4 miles saves a fraction of a minute at best which is nearly always lost waiting for the stand/tug/clearance/pax so experienced crew just don't bother.
6) Go and Ezy have aircraft monitoring equipment which generates reports for things such as high speed taxiing.
7) Its a shame Chirp or the filer chose to hide behind the phrase Low Cost Airlines when they actually meant Ryanair.
2) Ezy and Go pilots have no on time bonuses or performance related incentives - do Ryanair?
3) If you are not on time in Go or Ezy nobody ever asks why. Do they in FRA?
4) I was always under the impression that the low costs know that the first one to have a serious accident will be the first one to go bust.
5) The speed of heat until 4 miles saves a fraction of a minute at best which is nearly always lost waiting for the stand/tug/clearance/pax so experienced crew just don't bother.
6) Go and Ezy have aircraft monitoring equipment which generates reports for things such as high speed taxiing.
7) Its a shame Chirp or the filer chose to hide behind the phrase Low Cost Airlines when they actually meant Ryanair.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CHIRP does not identify airlines, airports, or even countries. There is no slur that I can see on "all low-cost operators". If they had said "A foreign flag-carrier", do you suppose that Lufthansa would be up in arms about the slur on them for what was, obviously, about Air France?
Furthermore, I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is tax-payers' money. Their website says "Welcome to The CHIRP Charitable Trust Home Page" (My emphasis).
If you throw it straight in the bin, then more fool you. Most people find it a source of excellent food for thought, a means of learning from the mistakes of others without having to make them yourself. Unless, of course, you don't want to learn, or have already learnt it all?
Furthermore, I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is tax-payers' money. Their website says "Welcome to The CHIRP Charitable Trust Home Page" (My emphasis).
If you throw it straight in the bin, then more fool you. Most people find it a source of excellent food for thought, a means of learning from the mistakes of others without having to make them yourself. Unless, of course, you don't want to learn, or have already learnt it all?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C Montgomery Burns wrote: "If you upset ATC by disregarding them or ignoring their instructions, you can expect to find yourserf in the Biggin or Ockham hold for a very, very long time..."
I thought the stuff in the newspapers was bad enough, but this is absolutely bilge. As a Heathrow controller with 30+ years experience I have NEVER known any controller do such a thing. Dear God, we are really getting an awful lot of cretins in aviation nowadays...
I thought the stuff in the newspapers was bad enough, but this is absolutely bilge. As a Heathrow controller with 30+ years experience I have NEVER known any controller do such a thing. Dear God, we are really getting an awful lot of cretins in aviation nowadays...
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's fair to say that in all walks of aviation as in life there are a percentage of a*****les, even in ATC!
A pilot who ignores specific speed instructions and then goes around soon learns the error of his ways.
A pilot who ignores specific speed instructions and then goes around soon learns the error of his ways.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recently, I have been questioning the instructions of ATCO's, on the approach into STN, because very often their controlling would leave me high and fast. In the best interests of Flight Safety and passenger comfort, I am not interested in descending with gear and speedbreak to capture the glide from above, which is not uncommon at STN.
The problem seems to be with fitting the rest of us in with high speed approaches carried out by Ryanair.
The problem seems to be with fitting the rest of us in with high speed approaches carried out by Ryanair.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: land of the long BLUE cloud
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Stable,
yes you are right about the Chirp publication. I have always read it with interest, as you say to learn from others mistakes/experiences. But to publish such, that it can get the treatment given by media today, insinuating that Low Cost means Low Safety, is highly irresponsible, and has undermined the whole principle if Chirp to me.
Some issues I think are better invstigated without publication of details into the public arena.
What would have been wrong with Chirp not mentioning the 'Low cost' issue?
yes you are right about the Chirp publication. I have always read it with interest, as you say to learn from others mistakes/experiences. But to publish such, that it can get the treatment given by media today, insinuating that Low Cost means Low Safety, is highly irresponsible, and has undermined the whole principle if Chirp to me.
Some issues I think are better invstigated without publication of details into the public arena.
What would have been wrong with Chirp not mentioning the 'Low cost' issue?
Guest
Posts: n/a
So will this report make any difference to flight safety? How would a pilot, feeling under pressure from management to get away on time, now make his decision?
Balancing tech problems/weather/slots/re-fueling/handling etc can be a real juggling act on a really bad day. Add into this a natural fear of 'Sticking your head above the parapet' and it is possible for some more compliant characters to feel like 'helping the company out'.
It is complete rot for any airline to allow (or engender) a time versus safety culture but it does happen.
It is difficult for the CAA to pick this up on Ops inspections too.
I fear that when the hubub from this dies down some people will still push and one day the unsuspecting public will suffer.
So, 'Ladies and Gentlemen' next time the Captain speaking says the flight is delayed 30 minutes, for any reason, just say thank you.
Far better to be late in this world than early in the next.
Balancing tech problems/weather/slots/re-fueling/handling etc can be a real juggling act on a really bad day. Add into this a natural fear of 'Sticking your head above the parapet' and it is possible for some more compliant characters to feel like 'helping the company out'.
It is complete rot for any airline to allow (or engender) a time versus safety culture but it does happen.
It is difficult for the CAA to pick this up on Ops inspections too.
I fear that when the hubub from this dies down some people will still push and one day the unsuspecting public will suffer.
So, 'Ladies and Gentlemen' next time the Captain speaking says the flight is delayed 30 minutes, for any reason, just say thank you.
Far better to be late in this world than early in the next.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
this is the siily season for the press, theres no interesting news so someone with an interest in aviation has spotted this chirp report, put a slant on it and sold the story. Ignore it and it will all go away in a few days. A more relavent story is the increase in the safety reports being generated by swanwick.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: West Wales
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree wholeheartedly with Dr Faustus. The high speed arrivals becoming the norm at STN are a recipe for disaster. I assume they are in response to pressure from Ryanair but they are being instigated by controllers who should know better. Food for thought, perhaps, for the ATCO who submitted the original Chirp report - I do hope he doesn't work at Stansted.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: This week Reading, next week Barcelona ... and repeat
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just read the 'Q & A' page relating to this 'story' on the BBC website. It is worth a read as David Learmount appears to be blaming pilots for these pressure induced problems rather than the operators........
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is everybody always so quick slagging off Ryanair???
It is a well known fact that the first LCA to have a crash will be the first to go bust. So why should there be a serious breach of safety issues of which the benefit is so little (i.e. a couple of seconds rather than a go around)??
As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with Ryanair's operation and if there was, why doesn't the IAA pick up on it and close the operation down??
The answer is simple: because there is no cause for concern. Pilots are well trained and aircraft are maintained properly.
As far as Stellios goes, indeed he should know better. All the -200's are well maintained and as such are very reliable. Thanks for quoting the British Midland crash as a good example.
When will people stop blaming Ryanair for all the World's evils just because the airline happens to be successful and is Irish?!
It is a well known fact that the first LCA to have a crash will be the first to go bust. So why should there be a serious breach of safety issues of which the benefit is so little (i.e. a couple of seconds rather than a go around)??
As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with Ryanair's operation and if there was, why doesn't the IAA pick up on it and close the operation down??
The answer is simple: because there is no cause for concern. Pilots are well trained and aircraft are maintained properly.
As far as Stellios goes, indeed he should know better. All the -200's are well maintained and as such are very reliable. Thanks for quoting the British Midland crash as a good example.
When will people stop blaming Ryanair for all the World's evils just because the airline happens to be successful and is Irish?!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bucks. UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just revisited the Reporting Points thread on this subject entitled "Punctuality before safety: CHIRP reports on a low cost airline" started on the 8th May and there are plenty of guesses as to which airline the report refers.
As this site is widely available to all and sundry, perhaps we Ppruners bear some responsibility for the linkage to Ryanair in today`s Times report.
As this site is widely available to all and sundry, perhaps we Ppruners bear some responsibility for the linkage to Ryanair in today`s Times report.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
I am almost certain that this 'news' report was developed after the thread about it first appeared here on Reporting Points back in early May. Read the thread again and see how this is actually 'old news' but has probably been through the medias 'manufacturing process' and then scrutinised by their lawyers which is why it has taken them so long to get it out.
The original thread can be reached by clicking on this link: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+before+safety
Once again, you can see why the red writing at the bottom of every page is there and this is precisely the result.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.
So, to those of you who are only interested in having a go at one airline or another, which bit of:
don't you understand? As far as I am aware, because a tiny minority of less enlightened pilots from 'any' airline may have had a paranoia induced, 'throwing of toys out of the pram' go at ATC, the vast majority of pilots in all airlines, including all the LCA's are tarnished with the same brush by the usual sensationalising media luvvies. Remember, they can and will use everything you write, whether in context or not, to produce a 'package' that will get its three minutes of air time or three column inches on the prime pages of their rag.
To those of you who just love to have a go at one airline or another, take note of this and try to use a bit on intellect and realise that we are all pilots and do the same basic job to the best of our ability and training with safety foremost. Once safety has been taken care of we can then apply punctuality and customer service. At the end of the day, and I am amazed that the media are not able to fathom this, we are going to be the first to arrive at the scene of any accident and our careers are dependant on us being the ultimate professionals with so much responsibility. A tiny minority can tarnish the vast majority with their ill thought out comments.
Do not blame the individual who submitted the report to CHIRP as he or she was being totally responsible by highlighting what was, to them, an apparent trend. We have all seen the threads on here where one person criticises a pilot for something they overheard them saying to ATC because of a percieved bias. At the end of the day, most of us know that all the high speed approaches or whatever are negated by the inevitable congestion once on the ground at most busy airports. It is the culture of pressure to compete for good placement in published delay league tables that causes non technical management to try and pressure the technical management and ultimately the pilots AND our colleagues in air traffic control into doing whatever is necessary to achieve the results.
It is not just LCA's management that try to link punctuality to pilots income. The media are not able to put this across in a three minute 'package' so we end up with a dumbed down, sensationalist story over a month after it was first 'aired' on here
The original thread can be reached by clicking on this link: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+before+safety
Once again, you can see why the red writing at the bottom of every page is there and this is precisely the result.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.
So, to those of you who are only interested in having a go at one airline or another, which bit of:
"In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions"
To those of you who just love to have a go at one airline or another, take note of this and try to use a bit on intellect and realise that we are all pilots and do the same basic job to the best of our ability and training with safety foremost. Once safety has been taken care of we can then apply punctuality and customer service. At the end of the day, and I am amazed that the media are not able to fathom this, we are going to be the first to arrive at the scene of any accident and our careers are dependant on us being the ultimate professionals with so much responsibility. A tiny minority can tarnish the vast majority with their ill thought out comments.
Do not blame the individual who submitted the report to CHIRP as he or she was being totally responsible by highlighting what was, to them, an apparent trend. We have all seen the threads on here where one person criticises a pilot for something they overheard them saying to ATC because of a percieved bias. At the end of the day, most of us know that all the high speed approaches or whatever are negated by the inevitable congestion once on the ground at most busy airports. It is the culture of pressure to compete for good placement in published delay league tables that causes non technical management to try and pressure the technical management and ultimately the pilots AND our colleagues in air traffic control into doing whatever is necessary to achieve the results.
It is not just LCA's management that try to link punctuality to pilots income. The media are not able to put this across in a three minute 'package' so we end up with a dumbed down, sensationalist story over a month after it was first 'aired' on here
Last edited by Capt PPRuNe; 18th Jun 2002 at 18:04.
Plumbum Pendular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 55
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny, I think that you are probably correct.
These issues MUST be discussed in CHIRP, if others read it and feel that they have experienced similar issues they might be promted to make a CHIRP report and then we can see a trend (or not) forming, then further action can be taken.
CHIRP is brilliant, long may it live.
As for the press, they should wait to see if there is any substance in the report. If there is, then they should go to print as it is definitely in the ."public interest", if there isn't then they shouldn't report it at all.
But we know that this is not how the press works
These issues MUST be discussed in CHIRP, if others read it and feel that they have experienced similar issues they might be promted to make a CHIRP report and then we can see a trend (or not) forming, then further action can be taken.
CHIRP is brilliant, long may it live.
As for the press, they should wait to see if there is any substance in the report. If there is, then they should go to print as it is definitely in the ."public interest", if there isn't then they shouldn't report it at all.
But we know that this is not how the press works
Last edited by fmgc; 18th Jun 2002 at 17:26.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Costa del CYYZ
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a controller in the London TMA I have a few observations:
1. LCA's are not the only airlines who fly their own speeds or break SLP's............big shock.
However I must admit that a larger percentage of aircraft I have been controlling who do go fast through SLP's or who change speed while under ATC speed control are LCA's.
That is my operational experience and not a comment on LCA's or their philosophy.
2. I am always amazed when a pilot gets to 1 mile from the SLP and asks me if there is any speed control......If I advise standard speed, how does the pilot comply. One one occassion I asked a pilot (A LCA) what his speed was as he approached about 2 miles from a SLP for EGSS......he replied 330kts. How does an aircraft reduce from that to 250kts in 2 miles?
This happens with alarming regularity.
3. On occassions I have been sequencing traffic for LOREL, and advised exact speeds to be flown, only for my nicely arranged line to be spoiled by an aircraft who has either reduced to 250kts after being given,say 280, or by an aircraft given 250kts and has not bothered to slow down. Yet again the vast majority from my experience are LCAs.
I have seen separation compromised by an LCA when having been given 290kts by ATC, decided of their own valition to reduce to 250kts, without telling a soul. A pilot would never take themselves off a radar heading, why do some feel that speed control can be disregarded with such ease?
Please can I remind these pilots:
Standard speed at the SLP unless otherwise advised by ATC.
When given a speed to fly by ATC.......fly it until you are de-restricted.
A word about Stansted and Luton...........On my watch each and every aircraft is given 250kts by BPK and 220kts by BKY.......this should not result in high/fast approaches. Similarly to deflect criticsism in some part from the Essex chaps and chapesses, they really do have a pathetically small amount of room in which to vector you, and are not helped by some rather high bases of airspace......If they had a bit more airspace to the North then extended downwinds, and much better sequencing would alleviate most if not all the problems. Ask any Essex controller what would make their lives easier, and they would all say more airspace. A lot of the time they do the best they can within their limited resources.
To conclude, I feel that the only way it seems some pilots will learn to obey SLP's and ATC speed control is to MOR them when they break it........That seems a pretty sad state of affairs.
I thought we were all pulling in the same direction.
1. LCA's are not the only airlines who fly their own speeds or break SLP's............big shock.
However I must admit that a larger percentage of aircraft I have been controlling who do go fast through SLP's or who change speed while under ATC speed control are LCA's.
That is my operational experience and not a comment on LCA's or their philosophy.
2. I am always amazed when a pilot gets to 1 mile from the SLP and asks me if there is any speed control......If I advise standard speed, how does the pilot comply. One one occassion I asked a pilot (A LCA) what his speed was as he approached about 2 miles from a SLP for EGSS......he replied 330kts. How does an aircraft reduce from that to 250kts in 2 miles?
This happens with alarming regularity.
3. On occassions I have been sequencing traffic for LOREL, and advised exact speeds to be flown, only for my nicely arranged line to be spoiled by an aircraft who has either reduced to 250kts after being given,say 280, or by an aircraft given 250kts and has not bothered to slow down. Yet again the vast majority from my experience are LCAs.
I have seen separation compromised by an LCA when having been given 290kts by ATC, decided of their own valition to reduce to 250kts, without telling a soul. A pilot would never take themselves off a radar heading, why do some feel that speed control can be disregarded with such ease?
Please can I remind these pilots:
Standard speed at the SLP unless otherwise advised by ATC.
When given a speed to fly by ATC.......fly it until you are de-restricted.
A word about Stansted and Luton...........On my watch each and every aircraft is given 250kts by BPK and 220kts by BKY.......this should not result in high/fast approaches. Similarly to deflect criticsism in some part from the Essex chaps and chapesses, they really do have a pathetically small amount of room in which to vector you, and are not helped by some rather high bases of airspace......If they had a bit more airspace to the North then extended downwinds, and much better sequencing would alleviate most if not all the problems. Ask any Essex controller what would make their lives easier, and they would all say more airspace. A lot of the time they do the best they can within their limited resources.
To conclude, I feel that the only way it seems some pilots will learn to obey SLP's and ATC speed control is to MOR them when they break it........That seems a pretty sad state of affairs.
I thought we were all pulling in the same direction.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite often, lately, I've been asked by ATC to maintain 180kts until 4DME. An instruction I'm not happy with and can't comply with - and I fly for a LCA. Come on ATC - Don't rush me!