Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

American Eagle CRJ900 scrapes wing on landing

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

American Eagle CRJ900 scrapes wing on landing

Old 30th Sep 2015, 15:26
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: In a Pineapple Under the Sea
Age: 61
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
American Eagle CRJ900 scrapes wing on landing

An American Eagle CRJ900 (operated by Mesa) scraped its wing while landing at McAllen International on Sept 29.

Regional Jet Scrapes Wing on Runway During Texas Landing | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth




Photo from Juan De La Garza twitter feed: https://twitter.com/JuanDeLaGarza1

Last edited by WillFlyForCheese; 30th Sep 2015 at 15:39. Reason: photo credits
WillFlyForCheese is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 16:48
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
From another forum, FO's landing, she had the 'dreaded 8 knot crosswind'.

Sounds pretty routine on the LiveAtc tape for Air Shuttle 5786 at about 1645Z.

Great photo Juan!

Usual disclaimers (but for the grace of God etc.), hope the damage is only cosmetic.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 17:01
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Alabama
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I know, perspective, foreshortening, crown of the runway. . . But it really looks like they are lined up on the far edge of the runway.
Dimitrii is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 17:34
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Brussels
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

From another forum, FO's landing, she had the 'dreaded 8 knot crosswind'.

Been saying this for years, but if you give me 10 hours with each f/o in a Piper-cub, it would do more for safety than all the sims in the world. Honestly, I would give up airline flying and devote myself to this, if companies would pay the costs. But the airlines don't want to admit there is a problem, and don't want any more costs (perhaps until they find a new winglet or tail-scrape cost a few $ hundred thousand.... )

ST
silvertate is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 18:01
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Better idea... Airlines should encourage more manual flight when conditions permit.
captjns is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 18:16
  #6 (permalink)  
ZFT
N4790P
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 73
Posts: 2,265
Received 10 Likes on 4 Posts
silvertate

Been saying this for years, but if you give me 10 hours with each f/o in a Piper-cub, it would do more for safety than all the sims in the world
Really? Total rubbish
ZFT is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 18:18
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ijatta
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No question, the best "sticks" I ever had the pleasure to fly with were the pilots who cut their teeth on a J-3.
wanabee777 is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 18:36
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Zone of Alienation
Age: 79
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Seen this before. 'Set it and forget it' is what I call it: New F/O lines it up and stops flying at around 100'. Wind change/drift not recognized and/or delayed response....overly-aggressive correction at the last second.

By-product of pilot mills and/or being taught by newly-minted CFIs who themselves don't have a firm grip on crosswind technique. Couple that with fast-moving, swept-wing jets and this is what happens.

I'm going to crush a few egos with this statement but it's true.

Last edited by FIRESYSOK; 30th Sep 2015 at 20:13.
FIRESYSOK is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 18:55
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
And before someone beats me to it, here are the secret codes, the landing was around 1645Z on runway 31:

KMFE 291753Z 02005KT 10SM CLR 33/21 A2986 RMK AO2 SLP110 T03330211 10333 20239 58000
KMFE 291653Z VRB04KT 10SM CLR 31/22 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP113 T03110217
KMFE 291553Z VRB03KT 10SM CLR 30/22 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP114 T03000222
Looks like the 8 knot crosswind may have been overstated.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 18:57
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Been saying this for years, but if you give me 10 hours with each f/o in a Piper-cub, it would do more for safety than all the sims in the world.
The irony is that crosswind technique suitable for a high-wing Piper Cub may well cause a wing strike on low-wing airliners.

Larger aircraft are designed to make strong crosswind landings with some amount of crab. Otherwise the wing bank required to track centerline via side-slip will easily exceed the clearance geometry.

At < 8 kts however...
peekay4 is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 21:05
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Been saying this for years, but if you give me 10 hours with each f/o in a Piper-cub, it would do more for safety than all the sims in the world.
Wow hot shot , and what about if it was a wake (ideal windspeed to have it linger around the runway), how do you teach that in a Cub?
golfyankeesierra is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 22:04
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Silicon Hills
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
what about if it was a wake (ideal windspeed to have it linger around the runway), how do you teach that in a Cub?
Fly behind a buzzard?


Disclaimer, my first 8 "officially" logged hours were in a J-3. Wish I had one now.
vector4fun is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 22:09
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm with Airbubba here, "but for the grace of God". Cheers to FIRESYSOKS for editing out (something). And thanks to the manufacturers for building aircraft like tanks.

Last edited by deptrai; 1st Oct 2015 at 18:32.
deptrai is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 22:16
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Mosquitoville
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
silvertate

Quote: Been saying this for years, but if you give me 10 hours with each f/o in a Piper-cub, it would do more for safety than all the sims in the world
Really? Total rubbish
Tough crowd today...

Don't see how a little manual flying experience in a Cub would hurt anything...
Sorry Dog is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 23:04
  #15 (permalink)  

Bottums Up
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: dunnunda
Age: 66
Posts: 3,440
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
But don't you know that the aeroplane lands smoother if one wheel is put down first!
Capt Claret is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2015, 23:16
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Don't see how a little manual flying experience in a Cub would hurt anything...
Absolutely doesn't hurt a thing, but looking down on F/O's does!

And assuming that it was due to flying skills because it was it an F/O ,makes it even worse.

In a 737 I hit the wake of a preceding A320 over the approach lights once. It banked 30 degrees. If you have that in the flare you're a sitting duck; you'l hit the runway as well, no matter how many hours..
golfyankeesierra is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2015, 01:29
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,510
Received 58 Likes on 37 Posts
Larger aircraft are designed to make strong crosswind landings with some amount of crab. Otherwise the wing bank required to track centerline via side-slip will easily exceed the clearance geometry.
Not so on my "Boeing". The FCOM recommended crosswind landing technique changed a couple of years ago to the forward slip method:

Originally Posted by Mr Boeing
Crosswind landings are best achieved when the airplane longitudinal axis
is aligned with the runway centerline. Landing with a crab angle at touchdown is not recommended. The maneuver recommended for crosswind landing requires cross-controlling, using the rudder to align the airplane fuselage with the runway, and aileron input sufficient to arrest crosswind-induced drift.

Below approximately 200 feet AGL, gradually apply rudder so as to align the longitudinal axis (heading) of the airplane with the runway centerline. Control lateral drift by applying aileron into the wind. (the upwind wing will be lower), while continuing to apply opposite rudder to maintain fuselage alignment with the centerline of the runway.
You'll therefore land with bank on. In a 30kt crosswind, the FSF says you'll need 8 AOB to stay straight; apart from being above the FDAP limit (!) any extra bank application for direction control might well result in...
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2015, 03:09
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Interesting.

737NG FCTM has this wording:
*** Sideslip only (zero crab) landings are not recommended with crosswind components in excess of 17 knots at flap 15, 20 knots at flaps 30, or 23 knots at flaps 40. This recommendation ensures adequate ground clearance and is based on maintaining adequate control margin.
787 FCTM:
If the crew elects to fly the sideslip to touchdown, it may be necessary to add a crab during strong crosswinds. (See the landing crosswind guidelines table, this chapter). Main gear touchdown is made with the upwind wing low and crab angle applied.
With regards to the "other company", Airbus notes:
With higher crosswind (typically above 15 kt to 20 kt crosswind component), a safe crosswind landing requires:
  • A crabbed-approach, and
  • A partial decrab prior to touchdown, using a combination of bank angle and crab angle (achieved by applying cross-controls)
I don't know about the CRJ900 specifically but a lot of bizjets and regionals have very small bank angle margin at landing attitude and must use some crab on strong crosswinds.

While apparently there may be exceptions, in general I agree with FSF:
With a strong crosswind (typically above a 15-knot to 20-knot crosswind component), a safe crosswind landing requires a crabbed approach and a partial decrab prior to touchdown.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2015, 04:10
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
News coverage shows that the picture with the puff of smoke is not the only picture available. It looks like there is at least one picture before and at least one after the one that has a puff of smoke. There may be more, both before and after available if someone contacts the photographer.

Pitch up in the smoke picture looks excessive to me. Perhaps the right wing stalled, followed by the left wing resulting in a hard landing.

Someone needs to contact the photographer for any other pictures he has available
bloom is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2015, 04:52
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Asia
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
MESA, contracted by legacy airlines to do their regional routes at rock bottom prices. Pilots living in caravans and on food stamps, what do you expect ?
Metro man is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.