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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:45
  #161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Northern Territory Australia
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Carry on baggage/ Marketing.

One of The reasons why so much carry on is carried is because, in this hurry up world, the delivery of hold baggage to the reclaim is inordinately long. The carrier I worked for had targets of 1st bag on the belt within 15mins of blocks, last, 40 mins. The target for compliance was 90% and we were close to meeting this most of the time.
Other reasons include mishandled baggage and the fear of your bag not arriving. With the advent of reconciliations systems, the mishandling of point to point baggage is remarkably low - our carrier averaged around 1.5 bags per 1000 pax. BUT...transfer baggage is a different matter - usually becuase, wrongly, many transferring carriers put low priority to these bags since the problem of pax confrontation is at a different airport!
So... With this in mind .... Many carriers encouraged (marketed) the acceptance of carry-on baggage sometimes advertising that their allowance was 2 bags providing you could lift them into the overhead lockers without assistance.
The suggestions of locking overheads would certainly reduce the thoughtless idiot blocking the aisle for other escaping passengers but on a risk/cost analysis would probably reject the upgrade required. I liked the suggestion that those who had carry on with them on the ground after the evacuation should be prosecuted but that would be unlikely to happen which is a shame.
It is never to be forgotten that cabin crew are not just glorified waiters/ waitresses. The actions of these and the cockpit crew appear to have been exemplary
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:57
  #162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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@ Eclectic
I have them all scanned and stored in Dropbox (other cloud services are available) for that purpose. I can access all of the documentation from any smartphone or an internet terminal at the airport/hospital/police station.

Misty.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:57
  #163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
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There is little to be gained by wringing one's hands and blaming the passengers for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and having to think logically.

The issue is to find out what happened and contributing factors so as to continue to have a safe outcome in spite of the passengers individual actions.

I keep reading the many pages in this thread just to find out from those on-scene what happened to the plane.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:01
  #164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MCT
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Some after incident passenger reaction here including reports of what passengers had left behind and what appears to be some lack of communication from BA in the immediate aftermath. Easy to criticise in a fast moving situation as we don't know what else was going on.

Passengers stranded after plane fire - Story | Southern Nevada - Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, Henderson, Boulder City | LasVegasNow | KLAS-TV

Anyway, you can see from the picture in post 123 that the aircraft is partially off the paved surface and from the FR24 data released, it seems to have stopped at approx 40 degree to the centreline. That's no criticism of the crew by the way; they did a magnificent job of stopping and getting everyone out.

What this does show is the importance of having the appropriate cleared and graded area at the runway edges. Some big international airports I've been to have uncovered pits, trenches and god knows what in this area - all traps for both off piste aircraft or evacuating passengers.

In this case in the desert, these surfaces are strong enough to support the aircraft weight, but notice how the pax out of Door 4L are able to get well away without having to negotiate any obstructions. Passengers from the right hand side were evacuating onto the runway. And well done to the cabin crew who can be seen marshalling evacuated passengers away from the scene to safer locations.

Top job to the whole crew for doing their job in a most professional way - when it mattered.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:02
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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...I'm just interested in this gap between announcing stop, and calling for fire service.
Don't you think that they had their hands full actually stopping. Once they'd stopped they could have called for fire services. 15 seconds or so is not long. Think how long it'll take you to a full stop on a motorway.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:06
  #166 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post
And your point is ? Same as plenty of other hot places, but you won't be carrying luggage down the slide will you.

Really at a loss as to why you posted other that to "flame" Ho Ho.
No "flaming" intended. I was simply pointing out that that jacket is impractical in Nevada.

In any case, it's not a binary choice between that jacket or carrying a bag. People can make their own minds up as to what to carry in terms of passport/wallet/nothing and how to carry it. Obviously some of them get it wrong, but most don't.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:07
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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One handy tip for travelling.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
If you have 2-factor-authentication, this is not true. If you don't have 2FA don't email your whole identity to yourself

As some idea of the size of bags removed from a plane on fire with smoke in the cabin (and not to judge, to inform);

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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:12
  #168 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: UK
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Taking cabin baggage is not a considered decision

There are many comments treating the decision by some passengers to take baggage during evacuation as if this is a considered decision by the passengers, if this was the case it would be not just stupid but reckless.

The reality however is that passengers will be surprised and shocked. I would expect many of them to be confused and in confusion fall back onto habitual patterns of behaviour however inappropriate.

There shoudl be research into how best to alleviate this problem. Prosecution should only be considered if the research shows it would make a significant difference. Personally I think improved briefing/communications would work better but the point is to research it. If prosecutions are made then the chances are that those prosecuted are simply confused and disorientated rather than deliberately cuplable. I could accept this if it can be show that prosecuting what are effectively victims will reduce further deaths but only if that can be shown. I think the morality of prosecution is dubious even in that case.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:13
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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What this does show is the importance of having the appropriate cleared and graded area at the runway edges. Some big international airports I've been to have uncovered pits, trenches and god knows what in this area - all traps for both off piste aircraft or evacuating passengers.
Whether to "skew" or not as you stop for an engine fire with an X-wind is becoming more of a briefing item for us, especially on the more long bodied -300, and most especially at airports with less benign runway shoulders....At some places putting in a minor turn as you stop is going to put those going down slides at 5L or 5R into a storm drain, or worse...personally I'd be grateful to just get stopped and doubt I'd have the capacity to do much else...

As for the comments about 15 seconds between "stopping" and the "mayday"...very much
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:24
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned but I was surprised to see the escape chutes on the port side (side of the engine fire) being deployed. Passengers escaping into a danger area (engine fire, fire service vehicles manoeuvring etc).
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:31
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think anyone is actually arguing that carrying luggage during an emergency evacuation is anything but wrong. However I think the psychology bears some examination.

There's almost certainly a distinction in many passengers' minds which may arise in these situations. If the threat is plainly visible and imminent - say a fire inside the cabin - I doubt if many people would prioritise their spare undies over an immediate swift exit, unencumbered. However if the evacuation is being initiated in response to factors known only to the flight crew and not obvious, I suspect many passengers would think "may as well..." It's a fact of human psychology that we are inclined to think that bad outcomes - like death - always happen to someone else.

Personally I've always carried the absolute essentials on my person rather than in cabin baggage and can't imagine why anyone would do otherwise. As for the issue of excessive cabin baggage it infuriates me as much as it does professionals in the industry. However having had hold baggage lost five times (on one occasion permanently) it's hard to resist the temptation to carry on sufficient semi-essentials to cover the possibility.

Given the gravity of a situation requiring emergency evacuation, I'm surprised that it's not accompanied by PA instructions (language limitations accepted) forcefully ordering appropriate procedures - like NO baggage. It'd have to help, I'd have thought.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:39
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Rotor disk failure? Maybe not

A signature of a disc burst is the creation of several projectiles - usually three - flying in diverging paths in the plane of rotation; the obvious corollary is three holes in the case and cowl.

I see no holes in the outboard side of the cowl.

So - I'm beginning to suspect a pressure vessel burst. The big fans run at very high pressure ratio, and design criteria take the pressures and temperatures and cyclic fatigue into account. Then we have the odd phenomenon of a berserk burner weakening the pressure vessel through local overheating, leading to a blowout (e.g. Kegworth)

Just surveying the available evidence...
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:50
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Does anybody sane on here actually believe that a prosecution against a passenger reacting to an emergency by taking their bag could possibly be made to stick?

Apart from anything else, there would obviously have to be exceptions.

There would be people who needed inhalers or particular drugs for a start.
There would be evacuations in Northern Norway in -35C where a coat would be a good idea.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:50
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Getting Essential Safety Information Across to Pax ...

To those criticising humorous / informal flight safety demonstrations:

There is a major problem with strictly formal flight safety demos. Whilst they tick the legal boxes, the sad reality is that many pax simply don't engage with them. Especially at unsociable hours. They are perceived as dry, boring and - literally - a turn-off. Seen 'em before. They simply do not grab attention.

The ultimate objective of a safety demo must be to convey crucial life-saving information to passengers; ticking the legal requirement boxes alone is not sufficient. To this end, there is clear evidence that less formal / humorous flight safety demos DO SUCCEED in drawing and retaining the attention of passengers. The Southwest briefings cited in an earlier post draw laughs but do successfully get the message across. A droning robotic delivery keeps one's attention like the small-print on an insurance policy.

As a piece of anec***al evidence, I contrast the attention paid to the (formal) flight safety demo by passengers aboard a recent flight by a familiar scheduled leisure airline - more than half the pax appeared to take no notice whatsoever - and that noted aboard the return flight. The return flight was operated by CONDOR FLUGDIENST, a German charter airline forming part of the Thomas Cook Group. Their safety video is available for viewing on Youtube in both German and English language versions. Take a look. It is an outstanding piece of engaging film-making with a serious intent. Whilst it is humorous and very entertaining, it achieved almost 100% engagement with the pax on the flight I used. And that is the whole point. It got the message across. Those calling for (dry) formal demos / videos only have it absolutely wrong. Too many pax will totally ignore them.

I'm flying a similar trip next week - out from MAN with a regular leisure carrier, back to MAN with CFG. I will take careful note of the passenger attention to the respective safety videos. I fully expect that the humorous one will again emerge the clear winner.

EDIT: Question: Any idea why site software has censored the word A - N - E - C - D - O - T - A - L ? What am I missing here?
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:56
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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why did they not ask for fire services in that first call?
You're a long way forward of the engines in the 777 and they aren't visible from the cockpit. The fire loops give indication of a fire within the engine housing. This warning can also be a 'hot gas leak' coming from either a blown seal or a crack in the casing.

The fire warning will cause the 'Stop' call to be made then there is a pause for all three pilots to confirm the indications and identify the potential cause. Once the cause has been established then the appropriate call can be made.

The delay is to ascertain exactly the severity of the situation as putting your passengers out of the aircraft, down the slides onto an active, busy airfield isn't a decision that any Captain would take lightly. Once the initial 'alert' call has been made and the fire verified then the second call would be made.

Simple answer never rush!
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:57
  #176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Human nature of a imminent threat has a lot to do with passengers taking their baggage or not. I'm sure some didn't know how serious the situation was at the time . A simple leave all carry on bags after the evacuation order would help as well as convey the serious situation. The industry as a whole has to do more to stress the importance of leaving baggage behind during a evacuation order .

Last edited by tlbrown350; 9th Sep 2015 at 15:26.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:57
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Just reviewing the comments and available evidence it would appear that:
Those who were trained professionals in this incident (on the flight deck, in the cabin, in ATC and the rescue guys) all acted in a highly professional manner and all contributed to stopped this incident becoming a tragedy.


Some of those who were not trained (ie the pax) acted irrationally because of selfishness or lack of awareness. My conclusion - the bags issue is an industry problem and training/education is the only answer.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:58
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Mickj3 Not sure if this has already been mentioned but I was surprised to see the escape chutes on the port side (side of the engine fire) being deployed. Passengers escaping into a danger area (engine fire, fire service vehicles manoeuvring etc).
The wind had started to pick up a bit out of the NNW. Upwind on the fire side seems like as good a choice as downwind and the smoke side. Unloading twice as fast from an aircraft on fire may have entered the decision as well.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:59
  #179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
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Boeing and GE comments on FAA's 2011 "unsafe condition" qualification of GE80-85B

From FAA AD 2011-15-06 concerning "unsafe condition" of GE90-76B; GE90-77B; GE90-85B; GE90- 90B; and GE90-94B Turbofan Engines
末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末
"This AD was prompted by cracks discovered on one HPCR 8-10 spool between the 9-10 stages in the weld joint. We are issuing this AD to prevent failure of the HPCR 8-10 stage spool, uncontained engine failure, and damage to the airplane".

"Request
Two commenters, General Electric Company and The Boeing Company, requested that we remove the ''Unsafe Condition'' paragraph from the AD, and reword the Summary section to resemble the Summary section of AD 2002-04-11. The commenters stated that, by their analyses, cracks in the weld joint would not develop into an uncontained failure. The commenters stated that HPCR 8-10 stage spools, P/Ns 1844M90G01 and 1844M90G02, be inspected by an enhanced inspection, similar to those parts covered in AD 2002-04-11.

Answer
We do not agree. AD 2002-04-11 was issued because of additional focused inspection procedures that had been developed by the manufacturer. Because cracks were discovered on one HPCR 8-10 spool between the 9-10 stages in the weld joint, this unsafe condition is likely to exist or develop in other products of the same type design. The unsafe condition could result in failure of the HPCR 8-10 stage spool, uncontained engine failure, and damage to the airplane. We determined that this unsafe condition requires mandatory repetitive inspections for cracks. We did not change the AD."
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 15:07
  #180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Las Vegas NV.
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There is a picture of the starboard side of the aircraft in this story.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...engine-416536/

A lot of soot just aft of the R2 door.
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