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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 20th Sep 2015, 16:49
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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Beyond Economical Repair?
eckhard is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2015, 17:46
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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Beyond Economical Repair?
That's it.

It is a legal term I hadn't run across as a pilot. Well, now that I think about it, an insurance guy used that term years ago to tell me he was giving me a check for my car instead of fixing it.

Thanks again!

See: What does Beyond Economic Repair (BER) mean?
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 08:51
  #483 (permalink)  
 
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No question this crew did an outstanding job.


Just curious why 1L and 4L were used ?
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 10:29
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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well having been with some people who arrange the insurance for IAG last week, they said this 777 was insured at about $30m, not a chance is that an economic repair, with a decent lifed GE coming in at over $20m alone.....
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 18:02
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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What you have to be aware of in the number crunching for the purposes of whether it is deemed BER or not, is that the costs for the engine damage will almost certainly be excluded.

Much the same as, if the engine in your car breaks down (say due to a piston failure or overheat causing the block to crack), and you coast to a halt at the side of the road, running off into a ditch, your insurers will not pay to fix your engine. Only the resultant damage to the car itself.

Therefore, without knowing the extent of damage to fuselage, pylon, wing etc. you can probably take off something in the region of US$10 to 20 million from the repair costs for the engine, which will be for BA's (or possibly GE's) account. My feeling, this bird will certainly not fly again....
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 18:36
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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What you have to be aware of in the number crunching for the purposes of whether it is deemed BER or not, is that the costs for the engine damage will almost certainly be excluded.

Much the same as, if the engine in your car breaks down (say due to a piston failure or overheat causing the block to crack), and you coast to a halt at the side of the road, running off into a ditch, your insurers will not pay to fix your engine. Only the resultant damage to the car itself.

Therefore, without knowing the extent of damage to fuselage, pylon, wing etc. you can probably take off something in the region of US$10 to 20 million from the repair costs for the engine, which will be for BA's (or possibly GE's) account. My feeling, this bird will certainly not fly again....
Engines are often insured as well. It depends on magnitude of the damage and the causes. The large airlines absorb a larger risk themselves (FOD, etc.) but how much risk varies greatly.

I would be quite surprised in an event like this where the unexpected consequences went this far that the engine wasn't insured.
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 18:40
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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Parts

Have any 777 been broken for parts yet?

If mot then I would guess that would make the airframe of particular interest and value to the second hand parts industry.
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 19:00
  #488 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the main causal factor for the engine failure will play a part in the calculations or computations - yes.
From my perspective its the reason why the engine failed, followed by secondary casual factors, with what could be done to improve safety (afetr risk asssessments etc).
The bean counters, important as they are, will always do their trading.
Lets await the interim & final report....

IMHO the crew did a brilliant job, cool, calm, follow procedures.... Well done
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 19:43
  #489 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cura View Post
Surely the main causal factor for the engine failure will play a part in the calculations or computations - yes.
No, it's completely irrelevant.
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 20:54
  #490 (permalink)  
 
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Don't some airlines rent the engines - paying by the operating hour?

No idea if that's the case here though.
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 21:11
  #491 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the main causal factor for the engine failure will play a part in the calculations or computations - yes.
It's the unexpected consequences you insure for. The more unexpected the cheaper the insurance per coverage

Hypothetical example: FOD to blading is often absorbed by many (not all) airlines while wear induced part failure may not be insured by most.

The consequences of FOD or most blade failures may not be insured up to the aircraft level like pylons. At that level the insurance may kick in.

There is very little to do with blame other than behind the scene divvy up between multiple insurance risk takers in a consortium. In the end the insurance may go up for both the engine manufacturers (plural) as well as other aircraft manufacturers. It's often too difficult for the insurance carriers to redo risk based on one or two events.

Message:As a manufacturer show diligence and you pay a lower fee than your competitor (its hopefully a very small percentage of your total sales)
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 23:14
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Originally Posted by boxmover View Post
Have any 777 been broken for parts yet?

If mot then I would guess that would make the airframe of particular interest and value to the second hand parts industry.
Yes, a number of them. Line numbers 8, 19, 122, 226, 231.

In addition there are 14 derelict frames, including two early JAL -300s and four CSN -200s.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 00:24
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Engine fire

Interesting photo of RR powered B747 rejecting due to engine failure and fire.

Photos: Boeing 747-236BM(SF) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
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Old 23rd Sep 2015, 02:01
  #494 (permalink)  
 
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Minor point and latest re the "BER"

Sorry, found it already on ASN. Takeoff reported to be at 1612Z so not much of a crosswind.
Still, next profcheck the wind will be on my mind more then before (when we usually get exactly the same scenario).

copy/paste from ASN (they only mixed up UTC/local):


Already lost who posted this way back on page 15 or 16, but FYI, the time of the event was 1413L and being KLAS, that would have been 1613 PDT which translated in to Z, UTC or whatever you call it nowadays, makes it 2313Z.

On another note, after being here all week it looks like the Boeing and BA guys are leaning towards a repair job on the bird...............

Check back.........this is a developing story!
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Old 23rd Sep 2015, 09:47
  #495 (permalink)  
 
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@Yobbo - 747-236 RR Powered Photograph. Nice picture. FYI depending on the situation these flames from the exhaust of the #2 engine can also indicate that the crew have not stowed the reverser before 40kts. Note the reverser of this engine is deployed. At low speed the air being blown forwards causes recirculation/airflow disturbance at the inlet, which in turn causes the engine to suffer a compressor surge, producing flames from the exhaust. The RTO in this case may not have been for a non-engine related issue. Flames from the exhaust can be for more reasons than just an engine failure.
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Old 23rd Sep 2015, 10:12
  #496 (permalink)  
 
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Good spot N1 Vibes, and your explanation is bob on.
I remember during the development phase of those old 524's, special measures were taken to avoid re circulation within the test beds for exactly the reason you state.
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 01:26
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Aha!
I recognize that ship and recall having flown it about 10 years ago!
If you look closely, the registration is TF-ATX - Icelandic. In fact, Air Atlanta Icelandic doing ACMI work for MAS Kargo (Malaysian Air Cargo). At one time AAI had 3 747s (all classics) dedicated to that contract. No idea if they still do. Some pretty nice and intersting flying - AMS, ZRH, FRA, DXB, HKG, SYD, MEL, PEN and others...........
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 02:46
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Further news from Boeing and BA. Looks like they will repair in LAS and will take from 2-2.5 months to complete. Not sure if that includes the replacement engine or not.
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 12:43
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No, it's completely irrelevant.
Don't engine insurance contracts require that the engine is properly maintained?
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 22:10
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Originally Posted by alexb757
Further news from Boeing and BA. Looks like they will repair in LAS and will take from 2-2.5 months to complete. Not sure if that includes the replacement engine or not.
Good luck with that working out!
wanabee777 is offline  

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