Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:01
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,038
A "7-8 inch" length of compressor spool is going to have lots of energy and is unlikely to be stopped by a lightweight nacelle cowling (the compressor case is designed to contain blades, but not large parts of the compressor spool).

Pure speculation on my part, but I'd bet money that one of those spool pieces sliced open the fuel line feeding the main engine fuel pump. That line is a couple inches in diameter, and the center wing tank boost pumps would be pushing fuel out the resultant opening at ~70 psi. Between the several seconds necessary for the crew to recognize the problem and command the shutdown, plus another couple seconds for the spar valve to actually close, that has the potential to be a whole lotta fuel.
While the penetration of a wing tank is certainly possible, I tend to agree with other posters than had there been a major penetration of a wing tank, things would have been even worse.
tdracer is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:04
  #342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Las Vegas NV.
Age: 58
Posts: 165
HeathrowAirport

IIO is a 275tonne MTOW model, one of only four. Whilst it was a light load, LAS is high and hot - presumably the 38*C/39*C temperature at time of incident meant a take-off quite close if not at full thrust.
7Li s a long long runway, 14512' and a slight downhill grade to boot 1.1%

Last edited by LASJayhawk; 10th Sep 2015 at 21:09. Reason: 3 rd times the charm
LASJayhawk is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:26
  #343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Turks and Cacos
Posts: 310
Design certification has to ensure that an engine will contain a "Blade off Event"

You cannot design for a disc failure especially at high RPM due to the high energies involved.
On_The_Top_Bunk is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:28
  #344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The sky
Posts: 197
Just to confirm Wiggy, the SOP for the (read and do) evac checklist is for the First Officer to make the final evacuating ATC call.

In this case it's the same voice on all VHF transmissions which makes perfect sense if the Captain was PF.

The media don't seem to have grasped that there were three highly trained pilots on the flight deck.
Locked door is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:34
  #345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Potomac Heights
Posts: 435
NTNTSB detects signs of uncontained engine failure from BA 777 fire

Rather complete synopsis of findings so far from FlightGlobal.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...re-fro-416634/
SeenItAll is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:39
  #346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,142
Just to confirm Wiggy, the SOP for the (read and do) evac checklist is for the First Officer to make the final evacuating ATC call.
Nope, the checklist says that the Captain makes the evacuating call to ATC/Ground....(but the captain can operate outside the SOPs if circumstances demand it).

The media don't seem to have grasped that there were three highly trained pilots on the flight deck.
Agreed, then again it's spares two of the guys the joys of having their Facebook stuff in the Daily Mail, so maybe they win
wiggy is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:40
  #347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,672
So if you have fewer memory drills, perhaps it's because you are deviating from the manufacturer's recommendations? (Or you aren't flying Airbus/Boeing?)
Does Boeing have 13 drills with memory items these days? I sure don't think so.

I remember years ago riding in the cockpit of a B-763 with some of our Deltoid friends. They had one of those long 'before takeoff' checklists including things like 'Gyros - Erect and aligned'. At the time the Boeing 'before takeoff' checklist had only one item (I hate it when those autothrottles just won't engage ).

They explained that many of the items were put in to assure commonality with the DC-8 training. Of course, the Mighty Diesel Eights were long gone by then. Drop-rise, drop-rise (or at some places - double drop-rise ).

Whip,
With respect, Emergency Evacuation is not a memory item on the B777 in BA.
Check your QRH Checklist Instructions. It is a reference checklist.
Yep, this is the transition I was talking about. I claim to have flown Boeings and Airbuses for the past three decades but I'm probably just another poser with a flight simulator in the basement.

Years ago the evac checklist had maybe ten memory items and was sometimes hidden in some obscure tab for the amusement of the feds and sim instructors (places like 'Doors' or 'Aircraft General').

Then maybe it went down to two items like 'Parking Brake - Set', 'Tower - Notify'.

And now, as you say, a reference list with no memory items.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 22:04
  #348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Qatar
Posts: 89
I think the 13 different CL memory items is not just in reference to QRH/ECL NNC but includes the manoeuvres too. TCAS, EGPWS, Windshear etc. of course I may be mistaken. Although having just counted we have 9 check lists that require memory items (if you count severe damage and fire as 2 separate check lists). On top of that there are 6 maneuvers to remember.

Emergency evacuation is on the back of the QRH, and has been mentioned before is generally a read and do. For our outfit item 5. is Advise the cabin to evacuate (Captain) and item 6. is Advise the tower (F/O)

With regards to hand luggage; I don't think you will ever stop everyone from taking their luggage off with them. I would be interested to see evacuation trials completed where 15-20% of passengers are instructed to take hand luggage to see what effect that has on the evacuation time.

Regards

Last edited by 320goat; 10th Sep 2015 at 22:41.
320goat is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 22:20
  #349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: CE
Posts: 87
SeenItAll, surely the report means HP Turbine, not HP compressor? In over 30 years of engine development test I've yet to see an uncontained HP compressor failure. In fact the only uncontained failures I've witnesed have from HP & IP turbine discs.
DevX is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 22:27
  #350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NZ
Posts: 16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMZp8iP6isE

On board footage including the takeoff roll and footage of the failure itself (occurs at 36 seconds)
tiger9999187 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 22:36
  #351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 42
Posts: 443
Enough about the luggage carriers.

People don't know how to behave. They don't get their own best sometimes. What everyone understands is money - so, nag the airlines to charge for cabin bags but not for hold bags. This will soon ease your trouble as the greens talk louder than any safety briefing ever will.

Medicines can be really time dependant and therefore you might consider allowing a pouch or bag big enough for various medicines. Some medicine, like those containing warfarin, is extremely time dependant and also person dependant. It can be literally life threatening to not take it at the correct time.
MrSnuggles is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 22:47
  #352 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Qatar
Posts: 89
Possibly passengers perception of danger.

Having landed on water there was a much greater urgency to vacate the aircraft quickly, whereas I can only guess that a reject from around about 100kts and then stopping on the runway even with the fire and smoke seen from the left engine led to a lessor sense of urgency to vacate?

Regards
320goat is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 23:17
  #353 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 62
Posts: 1,109
Medicines can be really time dependant and therefore you might consider allowing a pouch or bag big enough for various medicines. Some medicine, like those containing warfarin, is extremely time dependant and also person dependant. It can be literally life threatening to not take it at the correct time.
Totally agree and the same with insulin. I can get 28 day tablet supply into a bum bag type pouch without a problem.
air pig is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 23:32
  #354 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: North by Northwest
Posts: 277
=bratschewurst
I think even the most stunned folks standing on a wing in the middle of the Hudson realized they'd sink if they were holding any luggage if the plane went under - which again I'd guess most people realized was going to happen in short course.
b1lanc is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 00:18
  #355 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,966
Rather complete synopsis of findings so far from FlightGlobal.
I view it as rather poor and misleading and not worthy of actioning.

There are going to be some new lessons learned in this latest event and the investigation to discover them is just beginning.

I don't view 7-8 inch long rim pieces as high energy relative to the stuff they have to get through to hole a wing or pressure vessel. Ignition at the engine metal case is a given in this type event so the persistence of the fuel must be addressed as well as the rotor failure itself.
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 01:26
  #356 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 77
Posts: 4,580
DevX:
SeenItAll, surely the report means HP Turbine, not HP compressor? In over 30 years of engine development test I've yet to see an uncontained HP compressor failure. In fact the only uncontained failures I've witnesed have from HP & IP turbine discs.
No, there is historical precedent for compressor disc or spool failures. Probably much less common than turbine disc episodes. And the previously cited AD raises the suspicion further in this case.
barit1 is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 01:36
  #357 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Ormond Beach, FL USA
Posts: 3
The high pressure compressor case may not be capable of containing even 7-8 inch long pieces of the disk at near maximum RPM conditions. FAR requirements address blades and not rotors (standard and possibly integrated rotor). I can see a fuel line outside the effectiveness of the engine fire extinguishing system being breached by expulsion of these fragments through the case.


While not a commercial engine guy, just a military engine designer with some extensive knowledge of the adverse effects of ballistic impact on turbine engines, this is just an opinion.

Last edited by flyguyfl; 11th Sep 2015 at 01:53.
flyguyfl is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 01:38
  #358 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 77
Posts: 4,580
lomapaseo:
I'm mildly curious how the (HPC spool) pieces ended up on the runway. They may not have even made it through the nacelle but only got as far as the bypass and gone out the fan discharge.
No surprise at all. Titanium shrapnel pieces suddenly released from 1000G restraint, pulverize the compressor case and pass through the nacelle skin as if it were pasteboard.

Yes, the fuel spill is worrysome - but likely the big pipe from the spar valve to the engine fuel pump (on the AGB) was compromised.
barit1 is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 01:55
  #359 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 35
If it truly was an uncontained failure of a compressor spool, then it's very possible that a lot of the flames were due to engine lube oil from a ruptured gear box and/or lube oil reservoir. And, if it also took out the fuel/oil cooler, then even worse...lube oil and fuel all over the place.
Orestes is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 03:08
  #360 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land Down Under
Posts: 90
Wasn't the Sioux City DC10 accident a result of uncontained failure of the LP compressor disc.
Matt48 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.