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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 9th Sep 2015, 23:54
  #241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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CNN reporting possible fire suppression system failure

British Airways fire: Source cites fire suppression - CNN.com

"The British Airways jet's fire indication light did come on at some point, the source close to the investigation said. And the plane did have fire suppression equipment that was deployed, but it didn't extinguish the fire.

Investigators are looking into a few possibilities such as whether or not the fire suppression equipment worked properly or whether a fuel line ruptured, causing the fire to spread."
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 00:06
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Images of British Airways jet that caught fire in Vegas seems to show engine EXPLODED | Daily Mail Online
Some pictures here that lend themselves to photo-enhancement

I see no signs of shrapnel damage. As some said much earlier in this thread it doesn't look like an uncontained disk rotor. Nor do I see signs of extreme pressure release (some call this an explosion). Instead the pictures of the externals of the engine pod and wing go hand in hand with a persistent ground pool fire.

The closest I have seen to this is and old-fashion gear box fire on the bottom of an engine that remained persistent even to the point where on ground fire services had to wait for it to burn itself out.

The source of the pool fire in this event will be most interesting.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 00:44
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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I recently flew EWR-LHR-EWR return in the same GE90 powered 777 model as G-VIIO, and since the implementation of the new carry-on regulations. My roll-along went in the overhead, and my smaller bag for my laptop, which also included some medications, toiletries, wallet, passport, etc, was given a yellow label saying handbag/laptop bag, and this bag must be placed under the seat in front of you. I have no disagreement at all with all the arguments about leaving cabin baggage with wheels, indeed everything placed in the overheads, right there in the overheads in the event of an evacuation. However, with a light bag on the floor, I'd say it was far safer to pick it up and take it with me on leaving the plane in an emergency, rather than it remaining on the floor.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 01:17
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Suggestion: lock and unlock all carry-on bins remotely from the cockpit. Medicines, etc., should be carried in luggage that fits under the seat. Charging for checked baggage makes the carry-on problem worse.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 01:31
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Suggestion: lock and unlock all carry-on bins remotely from the cockpit.
Ah, one more system for the pilots to manage, which adds tens of thousands to the cost of the aircraft, and then fails to release the overhead bins when it should do at the gate. But of course the pax will be patient

Charging for checked baggage makes the carry-on problem worse.
Yup, baggage under should be free, anything carried into the cabin should be charged by the pound, then five times the price per pound for over ten pounds.....
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 01:46
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks v much Whip, for your post of the BA SOP & memory items.

Autothrottle Arm Switch ... Off
Thrust Lever Left ... Closed
Fuel Control Switch Left ... Cutoff
Engine Fire Switch Left ... Pull
If Fire Eng message remains -
Engine Fire Switch Left ... Rotate to stop & hold 1 sec
If Fire Eng message still displayed after 30 secs -
Engine Fire Switch Left Rotate to other bottle
Just out of interest, does anyone know what the difference in effect on the aircraft systems would be if the procedure was:

Autothrottle Arm Switch ... Off
Engine Fire Switch Left ... Pull
If Fire Eng message remains -
Engine Fire Switch Left ... Rotate to stop & hold 1 sec
If Fire Eng message still displayed after 30 secs -
Engine Fire Switch Left Rotate to other bottle
I appreciate that confirming and methodically shutting down the correct engine is standard procedure - just wondering how the above would affect the B777?
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 02:01
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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BA SOP's :- After STOP called and being achieved, PNH might well advise TWR of intentions.
Capt continues (else resumes) as PH and when safely stopped (if circumstances & brain functions allow : stop close to a taxiway for easy access of emergency vehicles; if RWY width & surroundings appropriate, nose into side of fault if headwind; away if tailwind).
Capt calls "Identify the Failure".
FO presumably called "Engine Fire Left"; fault confirmed between both.
Capt calls for "Fire Engine Left Memory Items".
Great job to the BA crew!

Some procedural thoughts and questions for my friends at BA and other carriers.

Over the years (and the bankruptcies and mergers ) I've seen the RTO procedures, like other ground ops, done different ways at different places.

Some airlines have the FO do the reject if he or she was the pilot flying and then hand the plane over to the PIC when stopped as seems the case with BA. Others have the captain always take control immediately when the reject is announced.

At BA can any of the flight deck crew members call a rejected takeoff?

At some carriers, the fault will be called, but only the captain can decide to reject.

It seems that on many U.S. carriers the current RTO callout is 'Reject'. It used to be 'Abort' but that was deemed unsuitable for these modern times. I can see where BA's 'Stop' might be preferable to 'Reject' as being less judgmental. I used to joke about this wacko PC stuff in aviation but I don't anymore.

Years ago there were James Michener lists of memory items for things like engine fires and evacuation. At various carriers they were called bold face, boxed items or phase one memory items.

A friend at Air Canada claimed that he had to be able to recite by memory all of the QRH drills including non-normals like low oil pressure. It was back when AC still did their own charts so maybe he wasn't joking.

Is there still a long laundry list of memory items at BA?

The trend I've seen with both Boeing and Airbus procedures is to eliminate most memory items in recent years. And, in the U.S., I would say that procedures and checklists seem to be gradually standardizing more on the manufacturer's manuals than legacy company procedures from another aircraft decades ago.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 03:30
  #248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
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One handy tip for travelling.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
Perfect when you lose anything through any circumstances.
...and extremely unsafe. I would recommend a cyberlocker account rather than gmail or yahoo. Much safer

...and you may find authorities will only accept originals.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 03:37
  #249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Other reasons include mishandled baggage and the fear of your bag not arriving...
Absolutely.

Cant trust 100% that your baggage is on the plane. I've been in that spot. Left without bags at midnight, carousel empty, everyone gone and no staff.

No clothes, documents. Just my wallet and the clothes on my back. $500 down replacing items. Chasing insurance for money 2 months down the track.

No chance ever again. From now on, what goes in the hold I can afford to lose.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 03:46
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Having played with brightness / contrast of the published photos to give a better view of the engine, to me it appears to be an uncontained failure affecting practically the entire engine core starting with the LPC. The fan blades all appear intact as far as one can tell so FOD unlikely.


I have an unverified figure of 4.6kg/sec as maximum fuel flow for a GE90, if a piece of shrapnel cuts the fuel line downstream from the HP fuel pump that will create a sizeable pool of fuel in the few seconds in the 8-10 seconds it took to respond to the situation and pull the cutoff lever. As observed by others, the fire appeared to be mainly from fuel coming from the engine and pooling under the wing root.

Last edited by andrasz; 10th Sep 2015 at 04:19.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 03:46
  #251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by CaptainX
To all the hand luggage apologists, I beg you to listen to the professionals who have posted on this site. However smart, fit and agile you think you are, if you start picking up your stuff and opening overhead lockers, others will copy you.

Do not take any hand luggage with you. No exceptions.
Due to human psychology, the sad fact is in the heat of the moment, a persons ipad, medicine, money, passport etc is far more important than anyone elses life. No one gives a damn....until the get out of the aircraft and they calm down and come to their senses.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:01
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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BA are one of the few airlines that allow a 23kg cabin bag. Other "national carriers" allow 7kg.

Prosecuting pax for taking those what would normally be checked bags with them in an evacuation would be extremely counterproductive ad could lead to job losses as pax desert the prosecuting carrier in droves.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:11
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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As a guesstimate, the fault happened somewhere at the 46 knots point and it took a few seconds before the crew was ready to cut power and hit the brakes, airplane still accelerating. That would imply alarm-to-full-stop in approx 16-20 seconds. Pretty quick reactions and decision making I'd say?
Took a few seconds? I doubt it. Take even a couple of seconds and the thrust asymmetry at low(ish) speed would have you have you off the runway.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:13
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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I must say that it has been time consuming & painful to wade through 14 pages where 80% or so of the posts have been about cabin baggage, etc, while trying to weed out the technical information. Perhaps it is time for two separate threads?
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:14
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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I thought that a MayDay call imposed radio silence on everyone else.
Maybe I'm old fashioned........
I had cause to give a mayday call a few years ago, and that was immediately followed by Air China talking over the top of me. A few seconds later, a Cathay flight came up and said..."Everybody on this frequency, SHUT UP". Thank you Cathay.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:19
  #256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by silkox
Idea: lock the overhead bins when the seatbelt sign is on
Incident occurs, evac call goes out, people stand up in the aisles trying to open locked overhead bins, wasting valuable time. Then someone loses it and panics, pushes from the back. People fall down in the aisles. Mayhem ensues. The evac takes 60 seconds longer than it should. Injuries occur, lawsuits happen. In hindsight, don't you wish the bins were left open.

People will naturally go for their property. Their property has personal value. The person behind in seat 38C doesn't.

You cant educate or legislate to make it better. Its not going to happen.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:35
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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I must say that it has been time consuming & painful to wade through 14 pages where 80% or so of the posts have been about cabin baggage, etc, while trying to weed out the technical information. Perhaps it is time for two separate threads?
+1

Yes please. This admittedly difficult issue hijacks the thread every time there's an evacuation, but the same sentiments are expressed ad nauseum, usually with [RANT] on and generating lots of heat but little, if any, illumination.

Reading post after post on this had me almost yearning for a METAR
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:46
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Someone else's posted photo enhanced crudely

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Old 10th Sep 2015, 04:59
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Airbubba

Some airlines have the FO do the reject if he or she was the pilot flying and then hand the plane over to the PIC when stopped as seems the case with BA. Others have the captain always take control immediately when the reject is announced.

At BA can any of the flight deck crew members call a rejected takeoff?
At BA the captain can call "stop" for any reason if he/she sees fit, the co-pilot has a list of things he/she can call stop for, mainly but not exclusively the really critical stuff such as engine failures or any fires. Any extra pilots on the flight deck are usually briefed to call out anything abnormal they think the operating pilots have missed, but according to the Ops Manual are never supposed to use the "stop" word........

Whoever is handling stops the aircraft, handover to the captain (if needed) is done after the parking brake is applied.

As for recall/memory items in the QRH ...yes you're right, much reduced and rationalised over the years (and yes, in our case the move has indeed been to junk legacy procedures and align with those published by Boeing/Airbus. ). FWIW the evac checklist is now meant to be a "read and do" if circumstances permit.

Last edited by wiggy; 10th Sep 2015 at 05:10.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 06:08
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Future Gazing

D Bru quoted in post #188,

"This AD was prompted by cracks discovered on one HPCR 8-10 spool between the 9-10 stages in the weld joint. We are issuing this AD to prevent failure of the HPCR 8-10 stage spool, uncontained engine failure, and damage to the airplane".

"Request
Two commenters, General Electric Company and The Boeing Company, requested that we remove the ''Unsafe Condition'' paragraph from the AD, and reword the Summary section to resemble the Summary section of AD 2002-04-11. The commenters stated that, by their analyses, cracks in the weld joint would not develop into an uncontained failure. The commenters stated that HPCR 8-10 stage spools, P/Ns 1844M90G01 and 1844M90G02, be inspected by an enhanced inspection, similar to those parts covered in AD 2002-04-11.

Answer
We do not agree. AD 2002-04-11 was issued because of additional focused inspection procedures that had been developed by the manufacturer. Because cracks were discovered on one HPCR 8-10 spool between the 9-10 stages in the weld joint, this unsafe condition is likely to exist or develop in other products of the same type design. The unsafe condition could result in failure of the HPCR 8-10 stage spool, uncontained engine failure, and damage to the airplane. We determined that this unsafe condition requires mandatory repetitive inspections for cracks. We did not change the AD."
On the safe assumption that BA complied with this AD, and presuming that this incident is related to the aforementioned cracks, could this spell big trouble in the near future for the operators and GE?

After all, if the upcoming investigation finds that HPCR 8-10 has indeed failed and had been inspected as required one would have to conclude that the inspection regime is inadequate. Short of inspecting prior to each engine start, presumably the only other option is an actual design change / replacement before any further flights. Might that not result in a large number of grounded aircraft? Admittedly this is all wild speculation on my un-informed part...
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