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Missing Indonesian Aircraft

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Missing Indonesian Aircraft

Old 18th Aug 2015, 17:03
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 75
"This 3 feet visibility in fog thing.

Setting aside pollutants, there is surely a theoretical minimum vis. due to water droplets in suspension [or slowly descending] but I cannot dig one out.

I write as a professional meteorologist [retired] who lived well before the UK clean air act, and who spent many many hours on RAF airfields all over.

Paying due regard to the definition of Met. Vis., I can honestly say that I have never experienced anything within touching distance of 3 feet [shall we call that one metre?]. I suppose my personal minimum might be 10 metres?"

I have only experienced it once in about a year living in the Colorado mountains. The rest of my life has been spent between 1,000' and MSL. Have never seen such dense fog at lower elevations.

Perhaps it was a combo of altitude, temp, and up-sloping pressure driven convection. Not sure. But not even the birds were flying, saw several magpies walking around somewhat bewildered.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 17:13
  #42 (permalink)  
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No different from clouds really, and in these regions, warmer air = more moisture = very dense fog.

Even in places like California, the so called Tule fog can reduce visibility to zero.

"Essentially, all types of fog are clouds that are in contact with ground and can reduce visibility to as little as 3 meters (10 feet) or even to zero in extreme cases."

NASA Visible Earth: Fog in California
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 18:21
  #43 (permalink)  
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I would like to confirm by anecdotal evidence that fog as thick as 3 feet = one metre can occur even in Sweden although very very rarely.

I found myself in such a fog some years ago when driving. I literally could not see the end of my bonnet because of fog. I had to park and wait for it to lift before I dared continue.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 20:24
  #44 (permalink)  
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Sierra Nevada in Spain at the top. Thick fog rolled in, and from where I had my backside perched on the front of the bonnet (hood) I could not see the windscreen (windshield)... Normal size car!
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 20:35
  #45 (permalink)  
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 20:39
  #46 (permalink)  
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and there was I thinking British weather was sometimes as bad as you can get.

Interesting that visibility in solid 10/10 water [as in swimming pool] is far better than in the worst fogs, which by definition contain far less water. It may be the multiple refraction/reflection/diffraction in fog is the cause.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 22:47
  #47 (permalink)  
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Atwater, California, USA (Castle AFB) December 1967: night time fog where you could see the street lamp directly over your head, but not the next one down the road. Probably more than three feet, but not a lot more.
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Old 19th Aug 2015, 12:08
  #48 (permalink)  
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that crash site is in hellish terrain - amazed they've got to it so quickly TBH
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 03:05
  #49 (permalink)  
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Only ~ USD $50,000 (Rp.700m) of the $468,000 subsidy cash recovered.

"This is all the money that we have collected. We believed the rest went up in smoke."

Rp 700 Million Salvaged From Trigana Crash Site, Says Pos Indonesia Official | Jakarta Globe
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 07:02
  #50 (permalink)  
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Well, of course.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 07:08
  #51 (permalink)  
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Oh, boy.
I'm having some strange thoughts about this crash.....
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 08:59
  #52 (permalink)  
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unlikely to have been engineered to cover up a theft of that size -

"disapearing" 700 mm rupiah happens all the time in indonesia............
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 10:16
  #53 (permalink)  
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Harry, the 700 mm rupiah are the leftovers.
Almost $400.000 disappeared, but I sincerely hope my conjecture will not be proved.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:16
  #54 (permalink)  
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Hope this time aviation authorities will investigate on fdtl of crew..it is very funny after incident or accident, no one in Indonesia check if pilots were already tired before to fly....as it is legal in Indonesia to make pilot flying til 54 hrs by week and more than 200 hrs within 30 days
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 07:11
  #55 (permalink)  
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If you are suggesting that the crash happened to steal $400,000 then you are delusional..... Have you seen the organizational abilities in that country?
What do you think is more likely? Pilot Error in unbelievably rugged and mountainous terrain or, convincing a couple of pilots to kill themselves so you can steal $400,000 and they get nothing.

@Cris, I'm not sure you are correct about the flight hour limitiations there.
You may be confusing it with the Duty times.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 00:42
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: JAKARTA
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These FLIGHT limitations have been confirmed to me by lionair and Garuda management and DCA....last week I d schedule for 38 hrs in a week
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 01:53
  #57 (permalink)  
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@cris95123: I suggest you check Indonesian CASR Part 135 Amdt 7, Subpart O, 135.495 and 135.497. The limitations are stated there.

I would suggest that if you were rostered a 38hr airborne (not duty) week, you have a legal obligation to challenge that roster.

I know the sections I am quoting are Part 135 and the Trigana flight in question would have been under Part 121 -but I don't have a copy of 121 here to hand. The limitations will be essentially identical though.

Found it. I have bolded the relevant information. From Indonesian CASR Part 121:

Originally Posted by CASR Part 121
121.481 Flight Time Limitations and Rest Requirements: Two Pilot Crews
(a) An air carrier may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots for nine hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during these nine hours.
20 Mar 2002 CASR 121 Amdt. 2
(b) An air carrier may not schedule a flight crewmember and a flight crewmember may not accept an assignment for flight time in air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed:
(1) 1,050 hours in any calendar year; (2) 110 hours in any calendar month; (3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(c) An air carrier may not schedule a flight crewmember and a flight crewmember may not accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least 9 consecutive hours of rest for 9 hours or less of scheduled flight time.

Last edited by RadioSaigon; 24th Aug 2015 at 02:03. Reason: quoted CASR Part 121
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 02:13
  #58 (permalink)  
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As I understand it, some carriers have a "different" interpretation of what "7 consecutive days" means. They make a distinction between 7 consecutive days vs. 7-day trailing period.

I.e., they interpret that requirement to only apply if you are scheduled to fly 7 days consecutively (with no break in a week).

Put it a different way, if you are given a full-day breaks within the week (e.g., Mon-Tue-Wed, break, Fri-Sat, break) then they argue that you are not flying for "7 consecutive days" and therefore the 30-hour limit does not apply.

The only limitation then is the Indonesian labor laws which says you can only work for 9 hours a day up to 54 hours a week. In the above scenario, you could fly 5 days (non-consecutively) at 9 hours each flying day = 45 hours.

But I agree that the "right thing to do" for pilots is to challenge this interpretation. Maybe not individually but either through associations or anonymously via the press.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 03:39
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: JAKARTA
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The challenge for pilots if they don't want to comply to company regulation is ...to leave..
Regarding FDTL rules interpretation....how Indonesian pilots can fly 7 consecutive days, when CSAR 121.471a....expect 24 hrs rest DURING these 7 consecutive days..the exact sentence is ANY 7 consecutive days.what is meaning of ANY in Indonesia...by my side ANY means OFF or ON.
during my experience the 2 times I was close to make major mistake was on leg 5 and leg 7 of daily duty..( in Indonesia there are no limitation on leg number as longer flight time is less than 9 hrs).....it is not by bad luck, there are so much accidents in Indonesia..as longer Indonesian DCA will not improve FDTL ...we can expect this type of accident

Last edited by cris95123; 24th Aug 2015 at 09:28.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 04:44
  #60 (permalink)  
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But it sounds like you've accepted their interpretation and have decided to stay?

Indonesia has had a long history of overworked pilots... and consequently pilots taking drugs (meth) to stay alert. The thing is... many local pilots like the longer working hours because it also means they get paid more.

Again unless and until pilots start challenging these things either collectively or via the press, nothing will change.
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