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Missing Indonesian Aircraft

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Missing Indonesian Aircraft

Old 18th Aug 2015, 15:31
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This 3 feet visibility in fog thing.

Setting aside pollutants, there is surely a theoretical minimum vis. due to water droplets in suspension [or slowly descending] but I cannot dig one out.

I write as a professional meteorologist [retired] who lived well before the UK clean air act, and who spent many many hours on RAF airfields all over.

Paying due regard to the definition of Met. Vis., I can honestly say that I have never experienced anything within touching distance of 3 feet [shall we call that one metre?]. I suppose my personal minimum might be 10 metres?
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 17:03
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"This 3 feet visibility in fog thing.

Setting aside pollutants, there is surely a theoretical minimum vis. due to water droplets in suspension [or slowly descending] but I cannot dig one out.

I write as a professional meteorologist [retired] who lived well before the UK clean air act, and who spent many many hours on RAF airfields all over.

Paying due regard to the definition of Met. Vis., I can honestly say that I have never experienced anything within touching distance of 3 feet [shall we call that one metre?]. I suppose my personal minimum might be 10 metres?"


I have only experienced it once in about a year living in the Colorado mountains. The rest of my life has been spent between 1,000' and MSL. Have never seen such dense fog at lower elevations.

Perhaps it was a combo of altitude, temp, and up-sloping pressure driven convection. Not sure. But not even the birds were flying, saw several magpies walking around somewhat bewildered.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 17:13
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No different from clouds really, and in these regions, warmer air = more moisture = very dense fog.

Even in places like California, the so called Tule fog can reduce visibility to zero.

"Essentially, all types of fog are clouds that are in contact with ground and can reduce visibility to as little as 3 meters (10 feet) or even to zero in extreme cases."

NASA Visible Earth: Fog in California
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 18:21
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I would like to confirm by anecdotal evidence that fog as thick as 3 feet = one metre can occur even in Sweden although very very rarely.

I found myself in such a fog some years ago when driving. I literally could not see the end of my bonnet because of fog. I had to park and wait for it to lift before I dared continue.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 20:24
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Sierra Nevada in Spain at the top. Thick fog rolled in, and from where I had my backside perched on the front of the bonnet (hood) I could not see the windscreen (windshield)... Normal size car!
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 20:35
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 20:39
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and there was I thinking British weather was sometimes as bad as you can get.

Interesting that visibility in solid 10/10 water [as in swimming pool] is far better than in the worst fogs, which by definition contain far less water. It may be the multiple refraction/reflection/diffraction in fog is the cause.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 22:47
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Atwater, California, USA (Castle AFB) December 1967: night time fog where you could see the street lamp directly over your head, but not the next one down the road. Probably more than three feet, but not a lot more.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 23:07
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Questions that are beyond my scope of real knowledge:

1. Was this plane on an IFR clearance receiving Radar Vectors? Was it on an IFR Clearance on established routes?

2. Could this plane have been what we call, "Scud Running"?

Thanks for posting the visual chart!
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Old 19th Aug 2015, 12:08
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that crash site is in hellish terrain - amazed they've got to it so quickly TBH
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 03:05
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Only ~ USD $50,000 (Rp.700m) of the $468,000 subsidy cash recovered.

"This is all the money that we have collected. We believed the rest went up in smoke."



Rp 700 Million Salvaged From Trigana Crash Site, Says Pos Indonesia Official | Jakarta Globe
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 07:02
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Well, of course.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 07:08
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Oh, boy.
I'm having some strange thoughts about this crash.....
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 08:59
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unlikely to have been engineered to cover up a theft of that size -


"disapearing" 700 mm rupiah happens all the time in indonesia............
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 10:16
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Harry, the 700 mm rupiah are the leftovers.
Almost $400.000 disappeared, but I sincerely hope my conjecture will not be proved.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:16
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Hope this time aviation authorities will investigate on fdtl of crew..it is very funny after incident or accident, no one in Indonesia check if pilots were already tired before to fly....as it is legal in Indonesia to make pilot flying til 54 hrs by week and more than 200 hrs within 30 days
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 07:11
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If you are suggesting that the crash happened to steal $400,000 then you are delusional..... Have you seen the organizational abilities in that country?
What do you think is more likely? Pilot Error in unbelievably rugged and mountainous terrain or, convincing a couple of pilots to kill themselves so you can steal $400,000 and they get nothing.

@Cris, I'm not sure you are correct about the flight hour limitiations there.
You may be confusing it with the Duty times.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 07:22
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Devil Twaddle

Until the CVR and FDR are published (Might be a while if the drivers got shot by an armed robber or one of the guards).
Having met quite a few robber types in far flung places, I can assure you their Intel and planning capabilities can be real top notch, even for a fistfull of credit cards.
One chappie even cut through a US embassy fence some years ago, snatched a handbag and legged it so fast even the Marine at my table could not catch him.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 00:42
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These FLIGHT limitations have been confirmed to me by lionair and Garuda management and DCA....last week I d schedule for 38 hrs in a week
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 01:53
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@cris95123: I suggest you check Indonesian CASR Part 135 Amdt 7, Subpart O, 135.495 and 135.497. The limitations are stated there.

I would suggest that if you were rostered a 38hr airborne (not duty) week, you have a legal obligation to challenge that roster.

I know the sections I am quoting are Part 135 and the Trigana flight in question would have been under Part 121 -but I don't have a copy of 121 here to hand. The limitations will be essentially identical though.


Found it. I have bolded the relevant information. From Indonesian CASR Part 121:

Originally Posted by CASR Part 121
121.481 Flight Time Limitations and Rest Requirements: Two Pilot Crews
(a) An air carrier may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots for nine hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during these nine hours.
SUBPART Q Q - 2
20 Mar 2002 CASR 121 Amdt. 2
(b) An air carrier may not schedule a flight crewmember and a flight crewmember may not accept an assignment for flight time in air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed:
(1) 1,050 hours in any calendar year; (2) 110 hours in any calendar month; (3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(c) An air carrier may not schedule a flight crewmember and a flight crewmember may not accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least 9 consecutive hours of rest for 9 hours or less of scheduled flight time.

Last edited by RadioSaigon; 24th Aug 2015 at 02:03. Reason: quoted CASR Part 121
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