Mass Sit-In BA Engineers at LGW 14/06/02
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Beautiful South
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mass Sit-In BA Engineers at LGW 14/06/02
Thought that this deserved a wider audience........ Today at LGW the whole of the Engineering workforce , that is the workers not the (mis)management, staged a three hour stoppage in support of two collegues who were being threatened with being excluded from their normal workplace. These two people are the first of some 250 Engineers who are trying to be forcibly re-located by the company to LHR.
How were these unfortunate individuals selected ? I hear you ask........
By where they choose to live......... Seems like according to BA by living close to LGW means that you are suddenly required to report to LHR on a soul destroying 7 on 4 off, 7 on 3 off shift pattern..................
Think about that for a minute......Do you want to fly in an aeroplane that has been serviced by engineers who are perhaps on their sixth day of earlies and who have been travelling some 80 miles round trip round the most congested road in the UK ?
Aplogies to any Pax and Crew affected by todays stoppage , but as witnessed on the "Army of One " thread feelings are running high.
How were these unfortunate individuals selected ? I hear you ask........
By where they choose to live......... Seems like according to BA by living close to LGW means that you are suddenly required to report to LHR on a soul destroying 7 on 4 off, 7 on 3 off shift pattern..................
Think about that for a minute......Do you want to fly in an aeroplane that has been serviced by engineers who are perhaps on their sixth day of earlies and who have been travelling some 80 miles round trip round the most congested road in the UK ?
Aplogies to any Pax and Crew affected by todays stoppage , but as witnessed on the "Army of One " thread feelings are running high.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good effort!
I can't believe they're forcing you to do that drive with your shift patterns. Safety culture? It's not worth the paper it's printed on if this is the reality. It's in times like these when management have lost the plot that things start going wrong. They really have no idea how morale and motivation affect the standard of an operation (in addition to fatigue...).
What a bunch of losers. Still they'll most probably get promoted soon...
All the best guys and gals
Fluke
I can't believe they're forcing you to do that drive with your shift patterns. Safety culture? It's not worth the paper it's printed on if this is the reality. It's in times like these when management have lost the plot that things start going wrong. They really have no idea how morale and motivation affect the standard of an operation (in addition to fatigue...).
What a bunch of losers. Still they'll most probably get promoted soon...
All the best guys and gals
Fluke
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Merstham, Redhill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another sit-in is programmed for this Monday and I say support your local friendly engineer. They've gone out of their way to cover up one major balls up I made not long ago.
If you have a defect on your aeroplane PUT IT IN THE BOOK then ask for an engineer; sit back, put your feet up, grab a broadsheet and enjoy at your leisure.
Let's show management there's solidarity on the shop floor.
I second the apologies to the travelling public but if they can't see that indirectly it is for their benefit, then they aren't thinking.
If you have a defect on your aeroplane PUT IT IN THE BOOK then ask for an engineer; sit back, put your feet up, grab a broadsheet and enjoy at your leisure.
Let's show management there's solidarity on the shop floor.
I second the apologies to the travelling public but if they can't see that indirectly it is for their benefit, then they aren't thinking.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steady chaps, it's becoming more obvious by the day that the whole BA operation is on the rocks. With the ridiculous overheads that BA have with their suits and buildings there is no way that they can make a profit. If they cut fares to compete with all the other operators they will simply run into more debt.
A complete closure of the BA operation at Gatwick is on the cards so don't play into their hands by giving them the excuse they need. We all know that the problem rests with the multi-layered management and not the engineers and operations people, but they are calling the shots ( until the receivers walk in).
A complete closure of the BA operation at Gatwick is on the cards so don't play into their hands by giving them the excuse they need. We all know that the problem rests with the multi-layered management and not the engineers and operations people, but they are calling the shots ( until the receivers walk in).
Controversial, moi?
Given that, following the future size and shape review, there is no longer sufficient work at LGW for the existing engineering workforce and also that I have every sympathy with the engineers what would they find acceptable to resolve the situation?
I would also express similar fears Lou Scannon's.
rubber jonny your nickname befits your posting.
I would also express similar fears Lou Scannon's.
rubber jonny your nickname befits your posting.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Bedfordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an Engineer I have every sympathy with the Engineers at BA LGW, We Engineer's are Under Valued in the Aviation Industry, some people including pilots consider us to be nothing more than Grease Monkeys, others consider us to be an Un-Nessessery Expense, many dont realise how much training, Studying and the Expense that it has cost to become Licensed Aircraft Engineers.
All I would like is for the Pilots to stand up for us Engineers and more importantly Engineers STAND UP FOR YOUSELVES, if its broken book it and fix it,
All I would like is for the Pilots to stand up for us Engineers and more importantly Engineers STAND UP FOR YOUSELVES, if its broken book it and fix it,
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JAFcon- why do you have it in so heavily for pilots? Of all people in aviation, I think you will find pilots respect engineers more than anybody else! It's not recognition from pilots that will dig you out of this hole- it's recognition by the pen-pushers/bean counters you need now! And you will not get that by taking a swipe at pilots! Wrong target my friend!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lou
Are you saying that everyone should just give in? Are you saying that BA management in Engineering have a clue what they're doing?
The work that Engineers are being forced to travel round the M25 for only lasts nine months. The 767 line cannot be moved to Gatwick - even though one was flown down from Manchester to Gatwick AFTER the CAA had been notified that Gatwick couldn't do 767 maintenance anymore.
Are you saying that everyone should just give in? Are you saying that BA management in Engineering have a clue what they're doing?
The work that Engineers are being forced to travel round the M25 for only lasts nine months. The 767 line cannot be moved to Gatwick - even though one was flown down from Manchester to Gatwick AFTER the CAA had been notified that Gatwick couldn't do 767 maintenance anymore.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Merstham, Redhill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lou:
Yet another chance to have a go at BA; how boring. BA, believe it or not, are in a much stronger position than you think so let's stop all this BA bashing nonsense. Yeah sure, the low costers are doing well and good luck to them but their true colours are beginning to tell amoungst the travelling public and most of my flights are generally full with a healthy proportion of business travellers. So where do these figures come from for the low costers?; I'll tell you, in the main it's a cross section of the undisirable public, the pondlife who have been duped into thinking that it's cheaper to fly low cost only to find later that a similar trip on a BA/BM/other non UK national carrier would not only get them to their desired destination (as opposed to 1 1/2 hours drive away from where they actually want to get to) but that the flight wouldn't have to be met by the police.
M.mouse:
The point here isn't whether there is enough work; it's whether there is the right type of work. They've shifted most longhaul and all mediumhaul aircraft up to golden runways. Fine. let's say that you are now surplus 100 engineers. Please explain to me the logic behind transferring those 100 engineers based on their home postcode, because it baffles me. We on the RJ have two aircraft without airstairs, six without APU, a further two without front toilets and one doesn't have a reliable fuel guage. And that's just the ones I have flown lately. To make matters worse, one of those aeroplanes has all four defects to itself; indeed has had for over a week. All of last week there was only one engineer at any one time available to sign the defects in the techlog.
It seems to me there are a few too many people here who know rather a lot about not much at all.
Yet another chance to have a go at BA; how boring. BA, believe it or not, are in a much stronger position than you think so let's stop all this BA bashing nonsense. Yeah sure, the low costers are doing well and good luck to them but their true colours are beginning to tell amoungst the travelling public and most of my flights are generally full with a healthy proportion of business travellers. So where do these figures come from for the low costers?; I'll tell you, in the main it's a cross section of the undisirable public, the pondlife who have been duped into thinking that it's cheaper to fly low cost only to find later that a similar trip on a BA/BM/other non UK national carrier would not only get them to their desired destination (as opposed to 1 1/2 hours drive away from where they actually want to get to) but that the flight wouldn't have to be met by the police.
M.mouse:
The point here isn't whether there is enough work; it's whether there is the right type of work. They've shifted most longhaul and all mediumhaul aircraft up to golden runways. Fine. let's say that you are now surplus 100 engineers. Please explain to me the logic behind transferring those 100 engineers based on their home postcode, because it baffles me. We on the RJ have two aircraft without airstairs, six without APU, a further two without front toilets and one doesn't have a reliable fuel guage. And that's just the ones I have flown lately. To make matters worse, one of those aeroplanes has all four defects to itself; indeed has had for over a week. All of last week there was only one engineer at any one time available to sign the defects in the techlog.
It seems to me there are a few too many people here who know rather a lot about not much at all.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squirrel,
<<It seems to me there are a few too many people here who know rather a lot about not much at all.>>.......unfortunately only too true. It seems to be the forum where an instant, anonymous opinion seems to be felt to be demanded from any idiot who has limited knowledge, or from other idiots who fire off 3000 opinions on every subject. Then you have the anonymous BA failures trying to get an anti BA dig in about ANY subject whatsoever. I feel we need to get this forum back to Professional Pilots only to try and interject a bit of discipline somehow. The actual proportion of Professional Pilots here is very, very small, and these voluble and uninformed opinions put off the vast majority of Professionals with internet access- it never seems to amaze me how many of our colleagues avoid pprune because of all the idiotic interjections. Just look at how many threads have been moved on Reporting Points! It's like ignoring the rules is perfectly OK. Too wild, too undisciplined.
<<It seems to me there are a few too many people here who know rather a lot about not much at all.>>.......unfortunately only too true. It seems to be the forum where an instant, anonymous opinion seems to be felt to be demanded from any idiot who has limited knowledge, or from other idiots who fire off 3000 opinions on every subject. Then you have the anonymous BA failures trying to get an anti BA dig in about ANY subject whatsoever. I feel we need to get this forum back to Professional Pilots only to try and interject a bit of discipline somehow. The actual proportion of Professional Pilots here is very, very small, and these voluble and uninformed opinions put off the vast majority of Professionals with internet access- it never seems to amaze me how many of our colleagues avoid pprune because of all the idiotic interjections. Just look at how many threads have been moved on Reporting Points! It's like ignoring the rules is perfectly OK. Too wild, too undisciplined.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Bedfordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My apologise to Notso Fantastic, my reply didn't come across as was intended, I should have said many people in Aviation including some Pilots, but was mainly aimed at Bean-Counters, Managment and Office Staff.
Once again Sorry to Notso Fantastic Most Pilots I hold in the highest regard, but not all !!!!!, especially those that think I'm a Grease Monkey whose there for their bidding and there to clean up after them.
Once again Sorry to Notso Fantastic Most Pilots I hold in the highest regard, but not all !!!!!, especially those that think I'm a Grease Monkey whose there for their bidding and there to clean up after them.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Beautiful South
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers to all those who have sent support. Please also spare a thought about all the Engineers who are out on Gardening leave at Manchester.
There is plenty of work available for the workforce of Engineers at LGW...... BA have even been turning away Aircraft checks (which subsequently went to Monarch at LTN........perhaps all the shareholders in BA should enquire WHY, if the company is in such a state, it can afford to offload important third party revenue and donate it to another company....? )
Anyone clarify / care to comment on possible abuse of the Data Protection Act , with regards to selection of the compulsory transfers based upon Home Post Codes?.
There is plenty of work available for the workforce of Engineers at LGW...... BA have even been turning away Aircraft checks (which subsequently went to Monarch at LTN........perhaps all the shareholders in BA should enquire WHY, if the company is in such a state, it can afford to offload important third party revenue and donate it to another company....? )
Anyone clarify / care to comment on possible abuse of the Data Protection Act , with regards to selection of the compulsory transfers based upon Home Post Codes?.
Last edited by cirrus01; 16th Jun 2002 at 11:10.
Controversial, moi?
Secret Squirrel
You state what youy believe to be the case but the question I asked was what would be an acceptable solution? The company plans at the moment placve less emphasis on LGW as a base for what could be called mainline flying. I presume this means there is a surplus of engineers at LGW. The guys at LGW are striking in protest but presumably have a set of demands to end their action?
Bear in mind I am not trying to stir trouble and actually have sympathy with the poor way in which engineering has/is being treated within BA.
You state what youy believe to be the case but the question I asked was what would be an acceptable solution? The company plans at the moment placve less emphasis on LGW as a base for what could be called mainline flying. I presume this means there is a surplus of engineers at LGW. The guys at LGW are striking in protest but presumably have a set of demands to end their action?
Bear in mind I am not trying to stir trouble and actually have sympathy with the poor way in which engineering has/is being treated within BA.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Merstham, Redhill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cirrus:
I think that Flying Lawyer or some such learned colleague might be your best bet for an informed answer to that one.
M.mouse.
I can't answer that question. The problem is, neither can management without some sort of consultation with the engineers themselves. The issue here is - and it's endemic - that a series of management decisions have been made by -nobody's sure who - about many things and no-one has bothered to think most of these things through; nobody has stopped to think about the Human Factors.
Don't get me wrong, I know it may seem debatable but I'm not a total halfwit: I know management have had some tough decisions to make and that consultation on every decision would be counterproductive and slow. It's not for frontline staff to make corporate decisions (I don't think it should even be the domain of the unions in most cases) I do, nonetheless feel that, once you've made a decision, it would go a lot smoother if you came to some sort of agreement with the affected parties on the best way to go about making changes.
You won't please all the people all of the time, granted, but you ain't gonna please anyone if you issue dictates; and any halfwit can see that when you are dealing with 20,000 or so frontline staff you have to keep them as sweet as you can.
I think that Flying Lawyer or some such learned colleague might be your best bet for an informed answer to that one.
M.mouse.
I can't answer that question. The problem is, neither can management without some sort of consultation with the engineers themselves. The issue here is - and it's endemic - that a series of management decisions have been made by -nobody's sure who - about many things and no-one has bothered to think most of these things through; nobody has stopped to think about the Human Factors.
Don't get me wrong, I know it may seem debatable but I'm not a total halfwit: I know management have had some tough decisions to make and that consultation on every decision would be counterproductive and slow. It's not for frontline staff to make corporate decisions (I don't think it should even be the domain of the unions in most cases) I do, nonetheless feel that, once you've made a decision, it would go a lot smoother if you came to some sort of agreement with the affected parties on the best way to go about making changes.
You won't please all the people all of the time, granted, but you ain't gonna please anyone if you issue dictates; and any halfwit can see that when you are dealing with 20,000 or so frontline staff you have to keep them as sweet as you can.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: south coast
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M.Mouse
The problem is not so much that there is a surplus of engineers at LGW. It is more to do with the fact that there is a massive shortage at LHR. BA have not recruited engineers or trained apprentices for many years. There are several hundred engineers over the age of 60 that are soon to retire.
Yes there is less work at LGW now but many of the staff could be redeployed rather than forced to LHR. Take a look at Secret Squirrel’s post about all the RJ defects. For example it is not unusual to find a single avionic licensed engineer in short haul on a Saturday night looking after some 30 aircraft. Do you think this is an acceptable amount of engineering cover? Are you happy that the new workforce at LHR will be getting up at around 04:30 seven days in a row, travelling 100 miles a day on the M25 and then maintaining your aircraft?
Some engineers who are being transferred have decided this is not acceptable (funnily enough) and have left the industry altogether. Others are likely to follow further depleting the engineering license cover in BA.
There is an alternative. There are empty hangars at LGW. The unions have suggested that some of the maintenance checks be carried out there. LGW staff have volunteered for this work even though it would not normally be their first choice. BA engineering management have stated that this is a feasible option but they will not take it because their long-term objective is to transfer staff to LHR. I would argue that this is only short term fire fighting and sooner or later they must address the recuitment issue. There is an industry wide shortage of licensed engineers and it is only going to get worse. All BA are doing at the moment is driving the best people out of the airline in an attempt to make up for there lack of training and recruitment in recent years. The BA maintenance work could be kept at LGW, some engineers could be redeployed to help Secret Squirrel get his aircraft fixed, there are also plenty of third party contracts available, finally BA would have an engineering workforce at LGW ready for when the pendulum inevitably swings back and LGW is back in favour again. (Can you imagine the problems they will have trying to force people back the other way!)
LGW engineers are not generally militants, they have suffered numerous hardships at the hands of their managers in recent years, they do not want to hurt the airline. On the contrary all they want is the chance to show that LGW engineering still has a vital contribution to make to the airline.
One final thought. It is rumoured (I STRESS RUMOUR) that BA engineering management are preparing to unpacify engineering approvals for engineering management staff ahead of any further action by engineering. Their approvals were pacified in accordance with JAA regulations due to the fact that they do not have recent experience on type. Bearing in mind that these people have performance bonuses based on on-time departures and minimum ADD levels (think about it!) are you happy that this is the standard of engineering you may be offered.
The problem is not so much that there is a surplus of engineers at LGW. It is more to do with the fact that there is a massive shortage at LHR. BA have not recruited engineers or trained apprentices for many years. There are several hundred engineers over the age of 60 that are soon to retire.
Yes there is less work at LGW now but many of the staff could be redeployed rather than forced to LHR. Take a look at Secret Squirrel’s post about all the RJ defects. For example it is not unusual to find a single avionic licensed engineer in short haul on a Saturday night looking after some 30 aircraft. Do you think this is an acceptable amount of engineering cover? Are you happy that the new workforce at LHR will be getting up at around 04:30 seven days in a row, travelling 100 miles a day on the M25 and then maintaining your aircraft?
Some engineers who are being transferred have decided this is not acceptable (funnily enough) and have left the industry altogether. Others are likely to follow further depleting the engineering license cover in BA.
There is an alternative. There are empty hangars at LGW. The unions have suggested that some of the maintenance checks be carried out there. LGW staff have volunteered for this work even though it would not normally be their first choice. BA engineering management have stated that this is a feasible option but they will not take it because their long-term objective is to transfer staff to LHR. I would argue that this is only short term fire fighting and sooner or later they must address the recuitment issue. There is an industry wide shortage of licensed engineers and it is only going to get worse. All BA are doing at the moment is driving the best people out of the airline in an attempt to make up for there lack of training and recruitment in recent years. The BA maintenance work could be kept at LGW, some engineers could be redeployed to help Secret Squirrel get his aircraft fixed, there are also plenty of third party contracts available, finally BA would have an engineering workforce at LGW ready for when the pendulum inevitably swings back and LGW is back in favour again. (Can you imagine the problems they will have trying to force people back the other way!)
LGW engineers are not generally militants, they have suffered numerous hardships at the hands of their managers in recent years, they do not want to hurt the airline. On the contrary all they want is the chance to show that LGW engineering still has a vital contribution to make to the airline.
One final thought. It is rumoured (I STRESS RUMOUR) that BA engineering management are preparing to unpacify engineering approvals for engineering management staff ahead of any further action by engineering. Their approvals were pacified in accordance with JAA regulations due to the fact that they do not have recent experience on type. Bearing in mind that these people have performance bonuses based on on-time departures and minimum ADD levels (think about it!) are you happy that this is the standard of engineering you may be offered.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gabbro
[QUOTE]BA engineering management are preparing to unpacify engineering approvals for engineering management staff ahead of any further action by engineering. Their approvals were pacified in accordance with JAA regulations due to the fact that they do not have recent experience on type[/QUOTE
This is an old BA tactic to break any industrial action, it also appears that the flight crews will be told from Monday not to put any defects in the book. Remember it was an Engineering manager who fitted the flight deck window that blew out on the 1-11!
I have just sat through 2 days of training on Human Factors, which apparently the CAA is getting very interested in due to the rise in maintenance related accidents, but as soon as I return to the office, the company start implementing strategy's that are designed to make the situation worse.
It never ceases to amaze me (I am pretty naive) that the CAA do not take any action over the undermanning issues, false numbers of staff on duty, etc. etc.
[QUOTE]BA engineering management are preparing to unpacify engineering approvals for engineering management staff ahead of any further action by engineering. Their approvals were pacified in accordance with JAA regulations due to the fact that they do not have recent experience on type[/QUOTE
This is an old BA tactic to break any industrial action, it also appears that the flight crews will be told from Monday not to put any defects in the book. Remember it was an Engineering manager who fitted the flight deck window that blew out on the 1-11!
I have just sat through 2 days of training on Human Factors, which apparently the CAA is getting very interested in due to the rise in maintenance related accidents, but as soon as I return to the office, the company start implementing strategy's that are designed to make the situation worse.
It never ceases to amaze me (I am pretty naive) that the CAA do not take any action over the undermanning issues, false numbers of staff on duty, etc. etc.
Controversial, moi?
Thank you for the replies which now paint a clearer picture of what is happening.
Jet II. I am LHR based flight crew and have not heard of such an instruction. From my experience of the integrity of my colleagues few of us would not put a defect in the technical log. I had enough of that with previous companies. It was a refreshing change to find that even if a defect would temporarily ground an aircraft there has never been and, I hope, never will be pressure not to enter that defect.
Jet II. I am LHR based flight crew and have not heard of such an instruction. From my experience of the integrity of my colleagues few of us would not put a defect in the technical log. I had enough of that with previous companies. It was a refreshing change to find that even if a defect would temporarily ground an aircraft there has never been and, I hope, never will be pressure not to enter that defect.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Beautiful South
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest situation..... seems to be that any BA Engineer at LGW (who has had the misfortune of being forcibily re-located to LHR) if he turns up Gatwick, he gets sent home on "Gardening Leave" on full pay and conditions.
A similar situation exists at Manchester where some four months after closing down the relatively new hangar. there are about 40 Engineers who are tending their Roses !
Meanwhile, because of the lack of Engineers many BA and third party A/C are not getting their overnight checks carried out., which obviously impacts on the following days flying programme, with delays and cancellations.
The BA Engineering (Mis)management has got an awful lot to answer for ..................
A similar situation exists at Manchester where some four months after closing down the relatively new hangar. there are about 40 Engineers who are tending their Roses !
Meanwhile, because of the lack of Engineers many BA and third party A/C are not getting their overnight checks carried out., which obviously impacts on the following days flying programme, with delays and cancellations.
The BA Engineering (Mis)management has got an awful lot to answer for ..................