Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?

[Lawro]

Trouble is a number of the big airlines are now employing Harley St legal medical services to replace the old company Dr. These legal vultures are able to prove people who regularly claim fatigue when being rostered within EASA FTL are unsuitable for full time employment & thus being forced out .

This has/is happening now !

Problem is the authorities deem these new FTL's to be workable . The airline's see them as a profit boosting target & pilots are replaceable with people willing to actually pay for the privilege!

[John Farley]

Why is it so difficult to reduce the airline pilot fatigue problem?

My thoughts:

A passenger seat in an airliner these days is just a commodity that is sold and bought.

The organisations that sell them (airlines) are very highly regulated in the way they provide this commodity and are hardly going to apply tighter regulation themselves. Why should they after all?

Why do the regulators not tighten the rules? Worldwide there are some 37million airliner flights per year and with the accident rate being as low as it is where is the argument that the airlines need tighter regulation?

Some of us have bodies that can tolerate the issues that cause fatigue better than others. Those that are really bothered by it should perhaps think of getting a flying job outside of the airlines.

But please don’t go down the ‘bosses are paid too much’ route – that is no argument. After all why not go and get yourself a job as a boss or as a footballer?

[Good Business Sense]

You are never going to get a "regulator" who approved an FTL to, in any way, agree the FTLs are fatiguing .... it must be you - it will be you !

Ref. "regulator" ... they used to be "safety agencies" If you write manuals for your company you'll know what I mean

[Livesinafield]

Do people contemplating joining the industry completely lack information about the nature and conditions of the job?

Yes they do

[StevieW]

Problem is the authorities deem these new FTL's to be workable

Well for most people they are workable.

[deptrai]

I agree with a lot of John Farleys post, nevertheless, regarding

with the accident rate being as low as it is where is the argument that the airlines need tighter regulation?

The industry has changed in many ways, so that could be an argument for reviewing regulation. And obviously pilots who worry fatigue may be an increasing problem that affects safety won't rejoice to read the next accident report where fatigue was a contributing factor just because "we've already improved the overall accident rate". Improving safety needs to be a continuous process, and it should be done proactively. More accidents due to fatigue would obviously make an excellent argument for tighter regulation but there shouldn't be a need to wait for more accidents to happen. Call me naive, maybe it's wishful thinking. And some pilots may, not entirely voluntarily, leave airline flying because of their concerns, but expecting that every pilot who experiences fatigue at the same time is on top of his game to go job hunting and completely change his career may not be entirely realistic. Some may continue airline flying until an accident happens. That could also be an argument for tighter regulation

[Deep and fast]

JF, have a lot of respect with regard to your knowledge re aircraft etc but I don't agree with your last post. Bosses are manipulating the labour market and getting bonuses based on varied indicators that they in most cases probably set for themselves.
Now if I propose that if I manage to drink four beers tonight I have meet my target then get a bonus. In the corporate entity it is just as easy(excuse the pun). Find an expense, be that labour mx airport fee and browbeat, negotiate threaten until you get the lowest price(think a certain large supermarket chain and milk farmers) then you'll start to get the idea.

There is a continuos and unhealthy redistribution of wealth and the corporate world is hell bent on screwing everybody to the floorboards for a extra quid and a excel spreadsheet that ensures the next new merc, house, holiday villa(delete as appropriate).
Now I'm no lefty red robbo type but the middle class provide the tax income for the masses. The top earning bods provide no real drip down of wealth. It was a falsehood dreamed up in America to prevent the governments taxing the out of them that got imported here. A bit like burgers and obesity.
So, you may ask, what has this to do with fatigue and flight hours. Well just like a junkie, the ceo coo cfo will be looking for the next bonus driven target and for crew, this means we nowhere near the thick end of the wedge.

Me, I'm going nowhere near a company that will almost certainly finish me off before retirement and sorry we all can't be a super human as you must be.

[silverstrata]

Even worse. you are never going to get a FTL regulator to impose the same regulations on its own employees, who useually enjoy the 9-5 routine. I think it should be mandatory for the CAA offices to have a 'pilot appreciation' week once a year. This would include:

Strip search before entering the building.
Start at 03:00, finish at 15:00.
Next start at either 03:00 or 15:00 (not sure which is worse).
No company restaurant, all food to be brought in.
But security to confiscate all fluids, including sauces and yoghurts.
No coffee or tea, to be provided yourself.
No lunch-breaks. All food to be eaten at the desk.
Toilet breaks to be requested, and signed in triplicate before approval.
All toilets closed and elsans provided, located next to the secretary's desk.
No air conditioning for two hours a day.

etc: etc:

[John Farley]

Deep and fast

Thank you for your comments. I hope I did not give the impression that I support the current FTL. I don’t - I was just trying to state why I thought it was going to be hard to get them changed.

Regarding bosses manipulating things for their own advantage I am afraid that is not limited to the airline industry and has more to do with human nature than aeroplanes. Some people are spectacularly good at it - remember the odd bank boss?

[RAT 5]

silverstrata: I've tried that approach with 3 different airlines and their rostering officers and financial officers. Deaf ears and headache from banking against brick wall.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Very true, Clunt, very true. When I worked in London, I often saw overworked office managers asleep at their desks at 20:00 or so (not 04:00, but 20:00.). But despite the claimed 'fatigue' nobody died.
Is the penny beginning to drop?

Silverstrata

The biggest risk to the Office worker and Pilot is the same - driving home.
In the Office that manager can nap, in the air - 2 crew, ATC, highly automated systems, nap maybe, prescriptive limits, ability to call in fatigued or sick.
As JF says go find another job.

silverstrata: I've tried that approach with 3 different airlines and their rostering officers and financial officers. Deaf ears and headache from banking against brick wall.

Likewise with Pilots in the Office, most are desperate to get back in the air when faced with only two days off a week

[Deep and fast]

JF i apologise if I misinterpreted your post.

In general, I am a capitalist but capitalism can't be left to run riot. The banking crisis was a classic example of profit over ethics. The regulators and the government have a duty to control the excesses of management with regard to the treatment of their staff which I hope will be addressed in this parliament.
Otherwise all we are left with is a dog eat dog existence.

HMRC need to pull their head out of their arse and look at Ryanairs contract employment tax and national insurance minimisation practises as well!

Oh, I exceeded my targets this evening. Just as well I'm off for a few days))

PS with regard to some pilots being ok and others less so with the current FTLs. maybe the difference between Pilot gross and net performance has not been re calculated correctly from the days of long haul being the limiting flight regime. I guess the final arbiter is the smoking hull and grieving relatives. But I hope not as I pax regularly as do my family.

[RAT 5]

Likewise with Pilots in the Office, most are desperate to get back in the air when faced with only two days off a week

This is not the serious reply I might have expected from you Mr. AP. When I worked for a certain LoCo in its early embryonic days we were limited to the minimum 8 days off in 28. After 3 years at university doing engineering my slide rule calculates that is 2 days per week. There is another LoCo where pilots regularly do 5/3 and travel home/work/home during their 3 days off. My slide rule tells me that is less than 2 days per week. For those on 5/4 rosters the same is true. Let's not forget the fact that LoCo boys lose half a nights sleep every working day; half their duty month. Not so the office wallers.

Your comment about driving home is very accurate. The biggest problem is lack of common sense from management. They seek only maximum productivity. Humanity is not included in their philosophy. There is not thought of allowing owls & larks to work at their best times. There is no allowance for age. One set of FTL's to cover all sort of operations is not the most realistic. To expect a >60 year old to tolerate the same rosters as a 25 year old is unrealistic. There needs to be more common sense. Previously it was common for pilots to retire at 55; it then crept up to 60; it's now commonly 65 and for some, now, even later in life. IMHO it is not sensible to expect a >60'er to be operating a common LoCo early/lates for 5 days and be sharp for the whole duty. The same true for long-haul. All this BS about controlled rest in the cockpit to allow very long flights. Perhaps if the seats were designed for it, but they are not.
It is about time the powers that be, and that includes XAA's, governments & managements, pulled their heads out of the sand and admitted there is a case to answer. At the moment everyone involved on the other side of the fence is trying to massage the facts and making them to appear something they are not.
I've worked for many different types of airlines in 4 different national regimes, short-haul, charter, long-haul, LOCo, national carrier, etc. I can say with absolute certainty, from personal experience and that of colleagues, that regular rostering to maximum FTL's is plain daft for a whole host of reasons. There are no sensible reasons or excuses for doing it. It is troubling when people try to justify it.
I have no faith in the 'powers that be', all of them. If ever there was need for strong union leadership and sensible campaigning this is it, but I've no faith there either.
To those who disagree with me, then we shall agree to disagree. And there I shall leave it.

[Skyjob]

clunk1001, I warmly welcome you to join in on my hours of work, its pattern and limitations so you could assess for yourself in an unbiased way just why many pilots find themselves complaining about the issues at hand.

Unfortunately, the same regulator allowing us to do those hours at the times indicated and defined by our rosters, prohibit non-airline personnel from experiencing those issues for the fear of security incidents.

Thus alas, I can merely ask you to pretend, unaffected by the imposition of poor air quality etc, to try and mimic our daily routine to see how well you'd cope, at a desk rather than a flight deck, with such procedures limiting your movements and access to facilities in resemblance to ours. Then at various intervals of this day, try a test, CBT based, to assess your performance in sudden short bursts, mentally and physically.

I think allowing you to do so not for a day but a few days in a row would allow your opinion to be changed.

[Boe787]

Deep and Fast is 100% correct, I am also a Capitalist, but the current system has been distorted so far in favour of the already rich it is a disgrace!

This is not a problem until it affects the daily lives of hard working people,
we are a society, not an economy, and the plot has truly been lost, when we are told there is not enough money to fund our hospitals and schools properly!
What a joke, there has never been more money about, its the distrubtion that is the problem!

Speaking of Pilot stress,also have a think about the stress and pressure of being a nurse or teacher these days!

This culture of greed enevitably leads Airline management, and most other management, to focus on one thing only, maximising profits!
And they could not give a toss about Pilot Fatigue, as long as their wages and bonuses keep going up and up, while telling all of us we are paid too much and planning the next lot of cuts to our terms and conditions!

[Uncle Fred]

For those who are not pilots or at least have not been in the industry for a long time, I welcome your thoughts and comments as I am sure others (including the ATC cohort) do. Might I ask however, that trying to compare what we undergo on the flight deck (whether short or long haul) with other lines of work is a bit high and wide of the mark. This is not to say that it is invalid or that others might have it far worse, but rather it is contextually difficult for comparison.

I will be the first to advocate that many other lines of work entail serious disruption to the circadian rhythm. I think only of the number of bus crashes across Europe in days not so far in the past. Lorry/truck drivers and medical staff are two other fields that leap out at me. I have a friend that is an anesthesiologist and I winch at some of the work that he has put in over the years--and I mean wince at it is frightening in some cases. Teachers, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers all face their own challenges when it comes to dossing down. That they face these challenges does not however, logically link to the discussion of the cockpit. Not to be pedantic (seriously!) but it does not work out logically very well. In other words because someone else has a tough schedule does not obviate fatigue in the airline industry.

What many pilots are doing in the discussion is giving voice to something that has been an extent problem for years. Again, this does not mean that other employees in other fields do not suffer equally.

Speaking up and, even more emphatic, standing down is often is much easier said than done. Remember, the great flaw in the fatigue mitigation approach is that the impaired individual must know that he/she is impaired and initiate corrective action.

I ask that you dwell on the fragile underpinning of that last point. The impaired individual is saddled with the responsibility to know that he is impaired. This hearkens back to the idea of how can you know you have lost SA if you have lost SA? Why do we ask others to keep an eye on your guests at the Christmas party?

In nearly 30 years (and many here have much more than that) of flying I have found an insignificantly small number of pilots to be whiners. To a man or woman pilots like to seek responsibility and work hard whilst on the job site. Therefore when I hear others rumble about scheduling difficulties and very real fatigue my ears perk up. In other words if even the impaired are noticing it then something is askew.

Work is work as well all know and it can often be cold/hot, brutal, laborious, thankless, and all the rest. Yet in the 21st century I would wish that anyone in a safety sensitive job is monitored through intelligent FTD. I extend that wish to any other employee in any line of work. We should be raising the bar on this topic across all.

[RAT 5]

The impaired individual is saddled with the responsibility to know that he is impaired. This hearkens back to the idea of how can you know you have lost SA if you have lost SA?

A brilliant point. Throw into the mix the now quite common scenario of zero hour contracts: you call in sick/fatigued and you don't get paid. Even more stress. So you now have the disgrace of such zero-hour contracts and max/min rostering combining to create a work environment that is more middle ages than 21st century.

Unfortunately, the same regulator allowing us to do those hours at the times indicated and defined by our rosters, prohibit non-airline personnel from experiencing those issues for the fear of security incidents.

This is also an insightful comment. Years ago when Niel Kinnok was transport commissioner in EU, and the 'workers' directive' was introduced it was understood that not all industries would be able to apply the guidelines immediately. One of these was public transport, including aviation. It was discussed that a transition period would be needed and in the meantime compensations should be introduced. e.g. it is not possible to redesign a/c to allow 'work breaks' as per office & shop workers; longer shifts and alternating sleep patterns needed to be addressed. What has happened? Things have become worse. Where are the XAA's & unions? To resist this abuse is exactly their responsibility. They have not discharged it, rather the opposite. What about the EU commission? It was they who said methods needed to be found to apply the workers' directive to public transport workers. They too have a responsibility to see their policies are implemented. This is not limited to our world, but many public transport industries.

[John Marsh]

Interested and concerned SLF here.

What are the chances of organised aircrew action in bringing the FTL issue to wider public awareness? Clear, non-technical explanations of the danger present and what would constitute acceptable change.

Are there any credible, capable and willing aviation experts who could communicate the message to the publc via the media? Or would it be better (&relevant?) to pass the hat around to fund hiring a PR agency?

[wiggy]

The various European pilot Associations such did try publicity campaigns (using the likes of Twitter and You tube) and lobbying prior to the vote in the European commission but I got the impression they were utterly over matched by the financial/lobbying power of the industry.

Sadly regardless of further campaigns I rather suspect most of the travelling public given the choice, will take the cheapest flight regardless of whether they think the crew are rested or not....

[RAT 5]

Unions do not have share holders, do not make profits nor pay bonuses. They are quite amateurish at what they do, which is driven more by a good heart to right wrongs than much else. Money has more power than right & wrong, hence the outcome of any argument of humanity, safety versus profit. We are in a couple of decades of greed driven business & political decision making. Sweat shop conditions are alive & well in EU. The argument often quoted back at the unions (if you are lucky to have an effective one) is that the market is all about competition. If you can't do this & that for that much and under those conditions then we'll export the product where people will comply. The negotiating tool of fear. The basics costs of employing people, over & above salaries, within EU are huge. Legislation and other issues have driven bureaucratic costs through the roof. "Let's go some where they are not payable" is their cry. It might be that only registration & licensing rules have prevented this from happening. But watch the NAS attempt to circumvent some of those. Even MOL has threatened to shift outside EU, or certainly to a cheaper HQ. The EU politicians think they might have done a good thing for employees in making such guide lines & directives. However the costs were too high for the share holders and so the art of loop hole finding has boomed. The introduction of zero hour contracts with no rights and no guaranteed income is a classic: and it has been allowed to happen right under the noses of those same politicians who sought to give workers a better deal. Amazing; and the unions let them do it. Stable door and horse bolting comes to mind.
And this is not limited to our industry. It is the same all over. Greed knows no bounds. Increase costs reduce profits and the managers will try to find any way to restore profits. Usually that means reducing costs. It's always first option. Another could be increasing quality/value, higher turn over by increased clientele base = more profit if it can be achieved with sensible productivity practices. That is more difficult and needs a change in culture, and a brave CEO to implement it. An employee share option scheme often goes with such a culture. Often the business model will bottom out and a change is forced upon them, or the company rots away. Fresh blood and a new broom is also a common solution, but the share holders will be very beady eyed. Again it will be a bonus/share option driven issue, and first tears will be shed by many as the knives cut deep. Once at the bone it's over. Are we there yet? Don't think so. The motivation for the 'powers that be' to make a change is missing. No matter what the industry whinging workers won't cut it. Customers and marching feet is where the money is. Even workers' strikes won't help, but customer strikes will. It's called a boycott. It's happened over products, both food & clothing, where it is believed too much human, animal or mother nature suffering is involved. Could Green Peace do a better job than ECA? A few bodies chained to bogies and lying on runways might help. It would depend on their cause. Anti-noise and NO & CO2 etc. would not be in our best interests. But somewhere there must be a professional PR solution. The holy grail is out there. Bring on Captain Indiana Jones.