Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?
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Timing is everything: and size matters.
Normal start time 1/2 the flights, big a/c, crew rest/sleep area, get up walk around, 12hr sectors, 8 days = 100hrs. Plenty of rest time down route. Plenty of family time at home. Good T's & C's, paid leave, sick pay, health insurance and decent pension. Not too bad.
5/3, 4 short sectors/day, out of bed 04.00 or into bed 01.00. 15 days/m. Half your life you lose half a normal nights sleep, strapped to an aluminium tube all day no exercise for 8hrs. Battery hen existence. Stuck away from home in self-funded motels, work-sleep, low quality family life for only half your time. No paid leave, no sick pay, no health insurance, no pension, holiday when you don't want it. Not too good.
Chalk airlines & cheese airlines.
Normal start time 1/2 the flights, big a/c, crew rest/sleep area, get up walk around, 12hr sectors, 8 days = 100hrs. Plenty of rest time down route. Plenty of family time at home. Good T's & C's, paid leave, sick pay, health insurance and decent pension. Not too bad.
5/3, 4 short sectors/day, out of bed 04.00 or into bed 01.00. 15 days/m. Half your life you lose half a normal nights sleep, strapped to an aluminium tube all day no exercise for 8hrs. Battery hen existence. Stuck away from home in self-funded motels, work-sleep, low quality family life for only half your time. No paid leave, no sick pay, no health insurance, no pension, holiday when you don't want it. Not too good.
Chalk airlines & cheese airlines.
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It's the love of flying that keeps us pilots in the air. The bird's natural instinct is to fly no matter what, which is what a true pilot should be thinking. The airline industry is not a catastrophe, pilots' working conditions and pay is not as bad as people moan about. And now with the demand for pilots gradually rising, we should not be complaining...as a true aviator, you are born to fly, not whinge and moan about it. 
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It's the love of flying that keeps us pilots in the air.
TheSkiiingPilot
Do you think the next time I buy fuel for my car or buy the groceries I'd be able to pay with love?
It's the love of flying that keeps us pilots in the air.
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Funny how I even say 'just my opinion of course' and people still feel the need to nibble 
My job is very much the second option described by RAT 5, not that it matters of course, it's just my opinion (although apparently being 'only 25', I'm not entitled to one of those).
My job is very much the second option described by RAT 5, not that it matters of course, it's just my opinion (although apparently being 'only 25', I'm not entitled to one of those).
Steve, Wait til you've got a couple of toddlers waking you twice a night and a wife working hard to raise them then see how you feel. When I was your age I could operate happily on zero hours sleep. Twenty years later......not so much.
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I see as expected that EASA are calling for more scrutiny of pilots as that is all that Bureaucrats can do which at best will achieve nothing at worst make the situation worse by driving pilots further into alternative medicine treatments and away from their AME.
With the large study on mass murderers showing that 8 out of 10 show no signs of serious mental illness what will further checks do other than giving a statement to the public that EASA have done something.
Far better to have an anonymous web site where concerned colleagues, family, partners or friends can place their concerns over a particular pilot.
it would then be up to the medical authorities to check with that pilot whether there is any justification to those concerns.People who mix with problem pilots are far better placed to note subtle changes and concerns than an enhanced medical which is no more than a spot check in time
Obviously the name of the poster would be available to the authorities which would avoid bitch postings but would be kept confidential.
There are already such sites for other areas of aviation why not this?
Dangerous people like lubitz are too clever to be detected by an AME when their guards are up but may let that guard slip to colleagues and friends
With the large study on mass murderers showing that 8 out of 10 show no signs of serious mental illness what will further checks do other than giving a statement to the public that EASA have done something.
Far better to have an anonymous web site where concerned colleagues, family, partners or friends can place their concerns over a particular pilot.
it would then be up to the medical authorities to check with that pilot whether there is any justification to those concerns.People who mix with problem pilots are far better placed to note subtle changes and concerns than an enhanced medical which is no more than a spot check in time
Obviously the name of the poster would be available to the authorities which would avoid bitch postings but would be kept confidential.
There are already such sites for other areas of aviation why not this?
Dangerous people like lubitz are too clever to be detected by an AME when their guards are up but may let that guard slip to colleagues and friends
With a salary of 19,000 Euros (flying for a European carrier ) I can't see how anyone can afford to "let his love for flying" actually keep him flying.
This is a practical problem, & not a philosophical one !
I am not a pilot (ex ATC), but salaries such as this are an insult to professional pilots, & are certainly nowhere near to the level which I would consider appropriate to the profession !
This is a practical problem, & not a philosophical one !
I am not a pilot (ex ATC), but salaries such as this are an insult to professional pilots, & are certainly nowhere near to the level which I would consider appropriate to the profession !
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It's the love of flying that keeps us pilots in the air.
that is why many pay to fly.
Lubitz loved so much flying and was so passionnated about it that he plunged himself with 155 pax on board.
who knows? maybe with better Terms and Conditions (I am sure it was a big delusion to him), it would have never happened...
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Far better to have an anonymous web site where concerned colleagues, family, partners or friends can place their concerns over a particular pilot.
it would then be up to the medical authorities to check with that pilot whether there is any justification to those concerns.People who mix with problem pilots are far better placed to note subtle changes and concerns than an enhanced medical which is no more than a spot check in time
Obviously the name of the poster would be available to the authorities which would avoid bitch postings but would be kept confidential.
There are already such sites for other areas of aviation why not this?
Dangerous people like lubitz are too clever to be detected by an AME when their guards are up but may let that guard slip to colleagues and friends
it would then be up to the medical authorities to check with that pilot whether there is any justification to those concerns.People who mix with problem pilots are far better placed to note subtle changes and concerns than an enhanced medical which is no more than a spot check in time
Obviously the name of the poster would be available to the authorities which would avoid bitch postings but would be kept confidential.
There are already such sites for other areas of aviation why not this?
Dangerous people like lubitz are too clever to be detected by an AME when their guards are up but may let that guard slip to colleagues and friends
I wholly concur with Pace's suggestion. As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I am aware of a young (just turned 20 and not yet employed) pilot who quite certainly has a latent psychiatric problem which is very likely to result in an explosive premeditated act of extreme violence when a particular set of circumstances arise and converge on a single point in time and space. There simply does not exist a channel through which to bring that particular case to the attention of appropriate specialists in the safety chain.
The hindsight thing will show that the signs were there and were being read by a tiny number of people, just as happened with Lubitz.
If the lad were a Muslim (which he is not) and if he were a radicalised follower of a terrorists tendency (which he is not) then there are any number of ways of eliminating him from the causal chain of a predictable incident. Just because his problem is psychiatric rather than religious or political, there is no avenue for a concerned party to break the otherwise inexorable chain of events and non-events which will lead to a tragedy.
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Well, I'm not a pilot, but where working conditions are concerned, the experience of other professions might give valuable insights. I'm a teacher now, a profession in the UK in which according to official government figures 40% of new entrants leave within 5 years. And some years ago I worked in a school where someone tried to kill a student in front of the class. I've also been a Trade Union official. But my purpose is not to say other people have it bad too, far from it. My point is nothing will change unless YOU guys are prepared to do something about it. And if you do, (and this is the elephant in the room) for there to be any chance of long term gain there will be casualties in the short term. People will be threatened, victimised, intimidated and some will lose jobs. Older generations who know what things used to be like will understand and 'might' be able to accept that. I doubt younger generations ever will until things get so bad they can't be ignored. It is a very sad and from the point of view of the companies callous state of affairs. But there will be no change without risk, and where there is risk there will be casualties.
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Stevie
On the other hand, I've been within 5 hours of 100 in 28 days almost constantly for at least the last 3-4 months and don't feel fatigued, 'under pressure' or 'burnt out'.
On the other hand, I've been within 5 hours of 100 in 28 days almost constantly for at least the last 3-4 months and don't feel fatigued, 'under pressure' or 'burnt out'.
Try aged 50 with a succession of cadets who don't have much of a clue, and still trying to maintain the impossible schedule. And then add the management pressure and engineering pressure, because it is your signature on the paperwork, not the right seat's. Try all that and more besides, and then come back and say it is not fatiguing.
BTW. The best definition I saw of fatigue, as opposed to tiredness, is to have a really good sleep and wake up as tired as you went to bed. If you have done that recently - you are fatigued. And the question is, should you go back to work the next day when fatigued? I can bet that 99% of pilots do.
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I see as expected that EASA are calling for more scrutiny of pilots as that is all that Bureaucrats can do which at best will achieve nothing at worst make the situation worse by driving pilots further into alternative medicine treatments and away from their AME.
Are we seeing the 'smoking hole' reaction that has been discussed on here many times. We all know of many problems that need fixing; we've brought up the subjects many times, only to be rejected by the powers that be. we've always said it will take a smoking hole to be taken seriously. Could this be one of those?
Are we seeing the 'smoking hole' reaction that has been discussed on here many times. We all know of many problems that need fixing; we've brought up the subjects many times, only to be rejected by the powers that be. we've always said it will take a smoking hole to be taken seriously. Could this be one of those?
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It is so ironic that EASA appear to be concerned about the pressure pilots are under, yet they will be adding to that pressure by shortly altering the flight time limitations regulations. This means our companies can work us even harder and have us legally landing aeroplanes having been awake for 24 hours and not the present 16 or so. The link below makes shocking reading.
https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/1b37bae...A-Opinion.aspx
https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/1b37bae...A-Opinion.aspx
Last edited by suninmyeyes; 9th May 2015 at 21:41.
Buttonpusher
The bird's natural instinct is to fly no matter what, which is what a true pilot should be thinking.
I've been doing it wrong for 30 years..
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I'm now retired from flying and I believe that the best years of my flying career were within the 80s and 90s. From the turn of the century (onwards) it has all gone downhill. My final few years were bloody awful, where the accountants discovered that they could get blood out of a stone!
Despite my love of flying I wouldn't recommend a flying career to anyone these days. 90 to 100 hours per month of flying longhaul operations is no big deal. However, if the schedulers seem to want to put you within the 18 to 30 hour rest bracket you're, very quickly, becoming tired and irritable. That sort of rest period is cumulative and levels of stress become uncontrollable.
I still have to work for a living, except that I now work 9 till 5 at an office desk. My salary is much reduced, though, I'm happier than I've ever been; weekends off; no night shifts; no commuting for hours on end... a stress free environment. I enjoy my aviation related employment... there is a life beyond flying aeroplanes! The best aviation employment years have long gone... along with pensions and salaries!
Despite my love of flying I wouldn't recommend a flying career to anyone these days. 90 to 100 hours per month of flying longhaul operations is no big deal. However, if the schedulers seem to want to put you within the 18 to 30 hour rest bracket you're, very quickly, becoming tired and irritable. That sort of rest period is cumulative and levels of stress become uncontrollable.
I still have to work for a living, except that I now work 9 till 5 at an office desk. My salary is much reduced, though, I'm happier than I've ever been; weekends off; no night shifts; no commuting for hours on end... a stress free environment. I enjoy my aviation related employment... there is a life beyond flying aeroplanes! The best aviation employment years have long gone... along with pensions and salaries!
I'm now retired from flying and I believe that the best years of my flying career were within the 80s and 90s. From the turn of the century (onwards) it has all gone downhill. My final few years were bloody awful, where the accountants discovered that they could get blood out of a stone!
Despite my love of flying I wouldn't recommend a flying career to anyone these days. 90 to 100 hours per month of flying longhaul operations is no big deal. However, if the schedulers seem to want to put you within the 18 to 30 hour rest bracket you're, very quickly, becoming tired and irritable. That sort of rest period is cumulative and levels of stress become uncontrollable.
I still have to work for a living, except that I now work 9 till 5 at an office desk. My salary is much reduced, though, I'm happier than I've ever been; weekends off; no night shifts; no commuting for hours on end... a stress free environment. I enjoy my aviation related employment... there is a life beyond flying aeroplanes! The best aviation employment years have long gone... along with pensions and salaries!