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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:19
  #1641 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, the only thing that will 100% solve the security issue in this particular scenario will never happen due to cost as it would require a redesign of the nose of all aircraft to:

  1. Move the forward bulkhead and external door back a metre or so towards the tail to accommodate a bunk in the cockpit
  2. Install piddle bags in the cockpit (obv. the cheapest part)
  3. Replace the internal door with a refreshment/meal hatch
  4. Install a separate flight crew external door forward of the passenger door

I'd rather pay for an air marshal to spend the duration of the flight in the jumpseat...
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:19
  #1642 (permalink)  
 
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How can breathing be heard on the CVR ?

Perhaps only if he was wearing a mask. If he was wearing a mask then there is a possibility that the gas mixture was off causing strange behaviour.

There were 8 minutes after the descent. The pilot comes back and finds no answer from inside. Well he isn't going to put an axe through the door immediately. He will probably ring a few times and then knock on the door. That's 2 minutes gone.

He is in an unknown and weird situation, so decides to override the door, tries to remember the code and puts it in ... maybe he pressed a wrong digit. Then he has to wait 5 minutes to try it again ??? Is that how the mechanism works. There is not enough time.

Of course we could all jump into the hysteria and call it terrorism, and force all pilots to take a double-dose of prozac before lift off.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:21
  #1643 (permalink)  
txl
 
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Re: Downward leg abnormalities

kenjaDROP:
During the Lufthansa press conference earlier today a (seemingly informed) media member asked the panel for further information on some 'abnormalities' in, what I understood to be, the crew's actions on the downward leg, DUS - BCN.
I believe it was stated by the panel that this would be followed up. Yet, I don't see any further reference to this in media reports nor in any other posts here.
Was this dispelled?
Just wondering if something had 'gone off' between the two crew on this leg it could have been a trigger for what occurred on the return.
Neither dispelled nor confirmed.

At the press conference, a reporter for German Channel One news was referring to "reports" the pilot in question had shown "conspicous behaviour" on the downward leg. LH CEO Spohr said he wasn't aware of those and would follow up.

Other media refer to these "reports" as coming from passengers.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:24
  #1644 (permalink)  
 
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john,
If you know the correct numbers, you can contact ATC from anywhere.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:27
  #1645 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by igs942 View Post
Unfortunately, the only thing that will 100% solve the security issue in this particular scenario will never happen due to cost as it would require a redesign of the nose of all aircraft to:

  1. Move the forward bulkhead and external door back a metre or so towards the tail to accommodate a bunk in the cockpit
  2. Install piddle bags in the cockpit (obv. the cheapest part)
  3. Replace the internal door with a refreshment/meal hatch
  4. Install a separate flight crew external door forward of the passenger door

I'd rather pay for an air marshal to spend the duration of the flight in the jumpseat...
Or... just send an FA into the flight deck while the PNF is answering the call of nature, as is already procedure for many airlines
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:27
  #1646 (permalink)  
 
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Glad to see that the authorities have ruled out conclusively all the possible medical scenarios before jumping on the suicide/pilot's fault bandwagon.

The guy could have had a panic attack ( might never have ever been left alone in a plane with 500 hours TT) brain aneurysm, subtle partial incapacitation etc etc

The suicide theory is definitely an option but how about we look at a few other very possible options before we go down that path.

There seems to be a bit of an agenda being run in numerous media sources about needing real time CVR/Black Box data, which is going to solve nothing so I am not sure why it is being brought up.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:29
  #1647 (permalink)  
 
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Nobody yet mentioned possible electronic glitch causing SFL to be zero...
Yes... and nobody mentioned EMP hit by North Koreans, alien abduction and static overload from too much balloon rubbing on their heads.
That electronic glitch must have knocked out the f/o, too. And the door mechanism.. or the five remaining crew members forgot the emergency code.

But to be fair, there may be all sorts of explanation... as there always is.
As we might never know for sure, we might stick best with good old Ockham:

"The simplest explanation is usually the correct one".

And by simplest I'd use the one with most known facts as of today.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:29
  #1648 (permalink)  
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I've slipped behind with reading in, so forgive if this has been spotted. I came from the Mail On Line link above.

Why does this ring such a loud bell? My bold.

'He was a fitness fanatic who jogged most mornings and evenings and you could often find him returning home from sports shops carrying health supplement bags.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:36
  #1649 (permalink)  
 
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Lots of people in lots of different jobs have to deal with being videoed. Bankers, workers in shopping centres, airport staff, workers at McDonalds, security staff, staff at bars and clubs, law enforcement officers, public transport, cabs, call centre staff.... Why on earth are pilots anything special?
Agree, feed the picture of the flight deck to cabin crew.


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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:36
  #1650 (permalink)  
 
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Chuboy

Or... just send an FA into the flight deck while the PNF is answering the call of nature, as is already procedure for many airlines
Not going to make an ounce of difference, I'm afraid.

My airline already does that, and given the average age, english language ability and education level, she (or sometimes he) will do anything I tell her to do, even as far as locking the door for me.

If I was determined to enact an act of disaster, a 45kg 19 year old girl would not stop me from me doing what I want to do.

Send in 2? Now it's a lot more difficult.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:38
  #1651 (permalink)  
 
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Family and friends

I think his family will definitely help with the investigation, and also his closest friends, if he had any. Not to mention the valuable input from his GP and psychologist.
He must have shown previous signs of mental weakness.
It is true that mental health conditions can affect anybody but this guy had a confirmed history of depression, stress, exhaustion, he probably did not plan his mission but he was vulnerable and he needed help. I have the image of a young fragile person, possibly fatigued and very stressed, exhausted, unhappy, who would see all those around him as enemies, nobody listening to him, nobody aware of his deep mental suffering, nobody helping or supporting him, a human being simply ready to explode at any time: the trigger could have been anything, including the Captain's landing briefing instructions, e.g. the way he spoke to him, anything really could have made this young FO very upset, and even angrier with his life, maybe he suddenly got so upset with the Captain to the point that he decided to give him a lesson and "prove to him and to the world who was really in charge of the plane", his action would have finally ended his state of mental pain and suffering. His revenge vs all suffering and pain. Maybe the deliberate act of crashing had not been planned, it could have just been the result of a malfunctioning and depressed brain, a sudden reaction to the extreme emotional pressure of the moment or of the day.
There are cases of mothers killing their small children when they decide to commit suicide and take their own lives, this is another example of how unpredictable and dangerous mentally ill brains can be for innocent people around them. It takes only a moment of uncontrollable anger or extreme emotional pressure to commit a mass suicide. The brain is incredibly complex and fragile.
Let's try and mitigate risk factors of hectic modern life like stress, fatigue, over-work, lack of rest, career pressure, extreme competition, unrealistic targets, micro managing people etc. as a good start; mental health has never been such a huge issue as nowadays in our very advanced western societies. Our brains are not meant to be constantly working under the extreme pressures of modern life, our brains do not work as computers.
Maybe we should all start to slow down a bit and think of real priorities in life, this would really be a good start and we would also be a bit happier, we could finally enjoy our jobs; we are just human beings in the end and we must take care of our feelings, emotions and essentially we must protect our fragile brains from mental illness.
A malfunctioning brain killed so many innocent people, again.
Societies and governments should therefore do all possible to mitigate the risk of creating more "ill brains" which simply means creating more mental health cases.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:40
  #1652 (permalink)  
 
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Why would anyone leave a 600 hour pilot alone in the cockpit? I hate using the airplane lavatory in flight. it was only a two hour flight, get my drift?
Geez, where have you been mate? One spring (training time) I flew for three months without having an f/o with more than 300 hr total time. Do you really think I never visited the potty in all that time? Yes, this was big jets. That is the nature of modern aviation.



You are saying an ordinary person is going to kill himself and 150 people whilst on £68k and achieving his lifetime dream of flying, all while "breathing normally".

£68k for an f/o?? You are having a laugh, surely. For all we know he was paying the company to fly, like most of the f/os in certain lo-cos do. Oh, and paying off a £100k training mortgage at the same time.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:40
  #1653 (permalink)  
 
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I still think there is a 5% chance the "incapacitated" theory has merit.

What if the captain forgot the code to the door? Heck I draw a blank on my pin-code sometimes which hasn't changed in 10 yrs.

Does it happen that Crew forget the code and need the other crew member to help them out i.e. open the door to let them in?

If the F/O felt he was losing consciousness and his last action was initiating descent because he suspected hypoxia...... but his unconsciousness was caused by a medical event.... and the captain didn't have the code to the door....

I don't believeCabin Crew knows the code. That would be a very easy hijack target.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:41
  #1654 (permalink)  
 
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Agree, feed the picture of the flight deck to cabin crew.
What does that do for anybody? They can't get in.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:42
  #1655 (permalink)  
 
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Some things still are a bit strange, even if all the evidence points to it looking as a suicide. What doesn't make sense, is the actions after the alledged "Locking" of the door.

So - If this was an outright suicide, why not just nose dive and plough it into the ground. Why the 8 minutes of pretty much controlled descent? See, that bit is the bit which doesn't make sense. There was no deviation to the left or right, simply straight down.

Having thought about it, It sounds more like a calculated "Revenge" at all cost. The power of being the only person who can change said outcome. The power of having all those people at your mercy. The power of the captain and everyone being powerless. He was in charge and everyone was going to do what he wanted. When you look at it like this - the 8 minutes begins to make sense. There's nothing worse than the sense of not being in control.

Understandbly the CC / Capt and passengers were frightened. But if this was a revenge, not only against GW, His Captain, The world for screwing him over in some way, if he really was in a dark place then arguably its the perfect(all be it rather sick) revenge. The Alps could of been a place he visited on holiday or a happy time or maybe he pre-empted that a 430mph crash into a mountain would cause massive disintergration and hopefully destroy the black boxes, leaving everyone powerless.

The unlikely but still possible (Look how convinced we were it was a decompressurisation just hours ago) that some strange medical event / mental issue caused a moment that cannot be explained.

I wonder what they've found at his home - Medicine, an extreme interest in MH370? I think that will hold the clues more than any CVR / FDR at this moment in time.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:42
  #1656 (permalink)  
 
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Terrorism has a very specific definition tied in with political aims, and this (and potentially MH370) ain't it - that has nothing to do with stereotypes, just legal & academic definitions.
FBI ? Terrorism Definition

Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code

18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
1. Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
2. Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
3. Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
1. Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
2. Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
3. Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

If it is dangerous to human life AND appears designed to intimidate a civilian population OR influence to affect government...... then it is (legally) an act of terrorism. The definition is now very broad. Thats the way it is.

Many other states now have similarly broad legal definitions.

So terrorism is becoming broader. Domestic terrorism. Politically motivated terrorism. Religiously motivated terrorism. Ideologically motivated terrorism (when the motivation seems to some internal ideology rather than alignment with an external political / religious organisation).
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:44
  #1657 (permalink)  
 
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Yes they do, and thats the reason for the deny option in the FD.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:47
  #1658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
Not going to make an ounce of difference, I'm afraid.

My airline already does that, and given the average age, english language ability and education level, she (or sometimes he) will do anything I tell her to do, even as far as locking the door for me.

If I was determined to enact an act of disaster, a 45kg 19 year old girl would not stop me from me doing what I want to do.

Send in 2? Now it's a lot more difficult.
Well it's a behavioural thing now. Just like before 9/11, no one really raised an eyebrow if pax wanted to visit the flight deck, before Germanwings (if murder-suicide turns out to be the cause of this tragedy) the sole pilot asking for the remaining pilot to be locked out of the flight deck might have seemed like a reasonable request to follow.

I don't think even the most gullible FA would be so quick to do the same now, particularly if instructions from the higher-ups to the contrary were made crystal clear.

Regarding your rather generalised remark about the physique of an FA, I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be a larger person on board to stand in the flight deck

Besides, if you were determined enough to commit murder, there is little that could be done to stop you. Having a second person in the flight deck is mostly about making sure the other pilot will be let back in, and at least creates an opportunity for someone to open the door and raise the alarm in the cabin if your behaviour seemed suspicious.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:49
  #1659 (permalink)  
 
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Statistics of society

Statistical research suggests that an average of 1% of society is populated by psychopaths / sociopaths. Therefore 1 in every 100 professional pilots will have inherent psychopathic tendencies. It is also estimated that up to 4% of those at the top of corporate organisations have such a trait. This is an important fact of life and unfortunately you may not know who these people are until it is too late to do anything about it. As long as humans remain on the flight deck, this will inevitably happen again somewhere, at sometime. Those involved will appear to be 'normal' and it will come as a surprise to those who knew them. I hope not to be a trusting passenger on their last flight.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 23:54
  #1660 (permalink)  
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I think this is the one that rang a bell. Flight standards skipper with huge experience one moment, and barking the next. There was some discussion at the time that these products may have been a trigger to a psychotic episode.

The young co-pilot of 9525 may well have been okay despite his history, but then an ingredient of these bizarre 'health' food things may just have been a trigger.

Yes, it's far-fetched, but there has to be a reason for the decent into such a deep disturbance. Just one line of thought.

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