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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:37
  #461 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Wrist Watch View Post
The worst part is that when it hits, the sufferer is aware of nothing, even if trained. If not recognised at its earliest stages, the game is over.
The clue is "if not recognised"

I know I feel sick when in a low oxygen environment. I recognise a problem and go into oxygen; I am lucky. Many others don t because they haven't experienced chamber drills.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:38
  #462 (permalink)  
 
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I have flown both very old and brand new Airbus and autopilot performance is identical.

The key to this accident is lack of communication...
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:40
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know if the FDR of this aircraft will have monitored the O2 systems. i.e. Will it tell if the masks were deployed and in which mode?
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:40
  #464 (permalink)  
 
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MD80rookie,

Swedish media reports that flight data recorder might be partly destroyed or damaged in the impact.
Source: AP
Oh, I'm sure the recorder as such is severely damaged after such a high-speed impact. The only thing that is really protected is the recording medium. I'm confident that will be fine, or at least readable with specialised equipment. These containers are made to withstand just such a crash, and since they're in the tail, they effectively use the entire aircraft as a crumple zone.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:44
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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BEA to hold a media conference at 1600 -->1645 (1500-1545 UTC)

Accident to the Airbus A320-211 registered D-AIPX, flight GWI18G, on 24 March 2015

INFORMATION ON 24 MARCH 2015

In accordance with the provisions of European Regulation 996/2010 the BEA has initiated a Safety Investigation after having been informed, at the end of the morning, that an Airbus A320-211 crashed near the commune of Prads-Haute-Bléone (Alpes de Haute-Provence, France).

The aeroplane, registered D-AIPX, operated by Germanwings, flight GWI18G, was flying the route from Barcelona (Spain) to Düsseldorf (Germany). According to information from the airline, there were 144 passengers and 6 crew members on board.

Seven investigators from the BEA, accompanied by technical advisers from Airbus and CFM International, are travelling to the accident site. They will be joined by a team of three investigators from the BFU (Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung) the BEA’s German counterpart.

A press conference will be organised at the BEA tomorrow, Wednesday 25 March, from 16h to 16h45. Journalists who wish to attend are asked to confirm their presence with Sonia Festou, [email protected]

Usually broadcast live by these two media

Le direct ? iTELE (initial ad.)



BFMTV en Direct: regarder la chaine info en live - BFMTV (initial ad.)
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:45
  #466 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by freespeed2 View Post
It is relevant since 100% O2 still will not supply the O2 at sufficient pressure to assist breathing. 'Normal' is a mix of O2 and cabin air, '100%' is all O2, 'EMER' is O2 forced out of the mask under pressure to inflate the lungs at high altitude.

It is not a matter of the percentage quantity of O2 being delivered. It is the fact that the lungs cannot inflate to inhale the O2 with the reduced partial pressure at that altitude. I've flown GIV for 10 years. It has the standard 'modern jet' crew mask.

Your comment highlights my point about the masks that was pointed out to us during the course; most pilots think 100% will prevent hypoxia at high altitude. It won't.

It will at airline/GA altitudes.

100% O2 will supply sufficient pressure for a fit human to remain usefully conscious at high commercial levels as explained from a tech point of view elsewhere. Positive pressure breathing is only used on military high alt aircraft (and Concorde). The continuous pressure system on a commercial jet is NOT a positive pressure breathing system which also requires specialist training to use. If you are under the impression that your biz jet system is a positive pressure set then please consult your tech manual. Urgently.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:48
  #467 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
... what is the MSA for the crash site?

The Jepp Grid MORAs are:

Descent point: 6 100
Mid Descent: 10 600
Crash Site: 15 800
Highest on FP: 18 200
Someone further up asked if the crew would select 7000 - this is unlikely. The general rule is to set MSA or 10000 ft, whichever is higher.

There is no sense descending below 10000 ft - you only burn more fuel.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:51
  #468 (permalink)  
 
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then wouldn't the decrease in rate of descent at the lower altitudes suggest an effort to recover from the descent?
Not IMO - the descent is "unremarkable" - an earlier poster referred to the FCTM and the descent rate is about half that of an Emergency Descent using Speedbrake.

The variations in V/S, including the reduction, I suspect are characteristic of IAS v M v AP mode, and the wind profile of the day. The corresponding fall in GSpd is a clue - Potential v Kinetic energy.

The data comes from FR24, or similar, using ADS-B. Of more interest would be adding the Mode S data downlinked to ATC e.g. IAS, Sel Alt etc. I would think that is available - just not in the public domain.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:57
  #469 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sheep Guts View Post
Ok in an A320 there is pax oxygen system outlet in the toilet (drop down masks as in the cabin)and the cockpit door auto unlocks during during a decompression. So possible but not likely.

Regards
Sheep
Why not likely?

What if one of the pilots is in the bathroom during a decompression and the other pilot in the flight deck is unable to don the oxygen mask (technical issue with the system, startle effect, reduced visibility, noise, panic, ...), but he is able to turn and pull the altitude selector to start the decent just before he passes out?
A random altitude, below minimum grid altitude, has been set and there is no conscious person in the flight deck to adjust the altitude to a safe altitude.
The pilot in the bathroom has donned his oxygen mask, and waits until the aircraft levels off and a PA from his colleague in the flight deck is made that the aircraft is at a safe altitude to breathe, since he doesn't have portable oxygen to leave the bathroom.

He would never expect that the aircraft will never level off and that his colleague is incapacitated.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 08:58
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the initial hold up on ground - Germanwings-Crews in Düsseldorf und Stuttgart verweigern Start - SPIEGEL ONLINE quotes Lufthansa saying that there were problems with the "nose landing door". All rectified before departure.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:06
  #471 (permalink)  
 
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This "nose landing door" problem was broadcasted as an issue with the latch resulting in sounds generated, so I assume nothing serious and I can not imagine a connection to such an incident, yet.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:07
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Originally Posted by Aldente View Post
I had the same thought. Just after TOC not an unreasonable time for one pilot to visit the toilet (especially if you'd meant to go on a busy turnaround but didn't). Just one pilot and cabin crew member in flight deck? (Well SOP in my airline anyway), rapid decompression and neither of the flight deck occupants get mask on in time. Other pilot incapacitated before gaining access to flight deck?
Sheep:-
Ok in an A320 there is pax oxygen system outlet in the toilet (drop down masks as in the cabin)and the cockpit door auto unlocks during during a decompression. So possible but not likely.
As in mine (Boeing) - just wondered how long the trip from toilet to being usefully back in your seat (with mask on and O2 flowing) would take, with maybe only 20 secs useful consciousness? The initial shock and subsequent adrenaline rush would boost heart rate dramatically thereby increasing the body's demand for O2. May have collapsed in flight deck. Other pilot may have failed to get mask on in time and cabin crew member unable to help or get their own on properly. It's all very well doing it in the relaxed confines of a safety day but ASFAIK they don't practice donning a mask themselves that often....
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:11
  #473 (permalink)  
 
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Hypoxia training

In the US, hypoxia training is encouraged but is optional. There is a program to provide civil pilots access to Air Force physiological training including an altitude chamber. I did a one day training that included lecture, learning various O2 systems, and experiencing hypoxia at cruise and as a rapid decompression. I still have a worksheet that they had us do at FL290 after removing O2. It has simple math problems and other simple tasks such as signing your name and connecting the dots. It is very instructive to see how your ability even to sign your name deteriorates over a few minutes time. The idea is fir each person to experience their symptoms. Very valuable and while it was part of my college program, it is not required by the FAA.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:13
  #474 (permalink)  
 
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Crew Oxy regulators.

There are different classes of regulators. A to E. Types c,d and e provide pressure breathing. The EMERG setting does not provide pressure breathing despite what a 10 year GIV pilot on this thread claims. The emerge setting is for smoke removal.


EROS mask operating manuals are available from the manufacturers web site and anyone more interested can find TSO-C78, TSO-C89 and TSO-C99 on line too.

Educated yourselves rather than relying on hearsay.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:14
  #475 (permalink)  
 
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From an anonymous comment on avherald:

CVR data has been read. It seems structural failure (windshield? not determined yet)..It was quick... sound of cracks,but crew initiated emergency descent by autopilot and then they weren't heard anymore. Autopilot was on during whole descent, but disconnected automatically shortly before impact when GPWS alerts appeared.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:23
  #476 (permalink)  
 
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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Structural failure fits the accident scenario quite well but I would be really surprised by both crew being incapacitated to this extreme.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:27
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I think it's safe to assume? that the flight crew were incapacitated in some way. If you have a problem, surely as a pilot, you would decend towards a blooming great mountain range.

A question if I may. Looking at a previous post which listed the decent rate of the aircraft. It started out decending at 2300ft/min, then it went to 3050ft/min all the way down to 4225ft/min and then back up the scale to the point of impact. Is this normal if the aircraft was on autopilot? I would have thought that if you set a rate of decent on the panel, it will maintain that number until altered by further inputs.

By the way, I'm not a pilot but am a fully trained aircraft engineer.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:31
  #478 (permalink)  
 
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Evanelpus you initiate the descent in Open Descent not V/S. The autothrust will maintain thrust idle and the autopilot will pitch for the speed. Variations in wind etc will cause the variations in speed and thus ROD. So all the data fits and is completely normal in my opinion.

Current Airbus A320/319 pilot.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:32
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You don't set a rate of descent. You basically close thrust ( open descent on the Bus ) and then the Elevators control the speed that you have selected. Therefore the rate of descent will vary.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 09:33
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From an anonymous comment on avherald:

Quote:
CVR data has been read. It seems structural failure (windshield? not determined yet)..It was quick... sound of cracks,but crew initiated emergency descent by autopilot and then they weren't heard anymore. Autopilot was on during whole descent, but disconnected automatically shortly before impact when GPWS alerts appeared.
Would love to know right now if any windows in the cockpit had been replaced
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