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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 4th Apr 2015, 13:31
  #3061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
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'Originally Posted by caneworm
"I think every serious airline company need to have internal
examination system to prevent from flying people with mental problems".


Good idea, but it's not enough.
The authorities & airline managements must have full access to a pilots,
* financial situation, (mortgage, debts, gambling history)
* marital situation, (married, divorced, separated, dependants)
* personal health history and that of all family members
* lifestyle choices, (gay, cross dresser, transgender, hellfire club membership)
* traffic violations
It's our employers right to know everything about their workers to determine their fitness to fly'

A persons sexuality or gender is nothing to do with their ability to fly.
I have known homosexual and lesbian pilots and at least one, extremely capable, transgender pilot.
It is nothing to do with a persons employer and there are strong laws in place to prevent such discrimination.
That you call these things 'lifestyle choices' perhaps says more about you and your own prejudices.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 13:35
  #3062 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xollob View Post
so you can provide some elementary logic as to why the areas listed above as examples do not need to be protected in a similar fashion ? closing the barn door after the horse has bolted isn't pro-active risk assessment.

if its what public think will make them safe so be it. I don't think and at least hope the public aren't that misinformed though, where there is a will there is a way, as mentioned in the excellent Marxist article.

We just end up becoming a red tape society, like H&S & HR drones !
The areas that you list probably do need to be protected in similar fashion, indeed some are.

However, - if you had not noticed - aviation is held to a higher level of safety than other forms of transport . There have been several occasions when lone pilots have become suicidal and killed their passengers ( ASN News » List of aircraft accidents caused by pilot suicide ) It is less easy to find similar occurrences in other walks of life; the Moorgate train crash 'suicide' claim is just one of the possibilities together with the driver totally losing attention. Also, unfortunately, an aircraft accident will get far more publicity than other accidents. So you are in the spotlight as a 'Sky God' and all you can do is give the school yard response "train drivers are left on their own too"?

This is a problem that the industry must fix. If there is another similar suicide incident in the next year or so, the politicians will take over with mandates and wholly indeterminate regulations with unintended consequences. Individuals or airlines refusing those political mandates would just have their licenses to fly/operate withdrawn. (Note how rapidly BA backed off when 'told' by the CAA to institute 2 in the cockpit) It makes eminent sense for the industry to mitigate the certain hazard of another lone pilot crash before the decision is taken out of the industry's hands.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 13:35
  #3063 (permalink)  
 
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Starting descent just after level off when the flight attendant is aware that there is an hour to go would be extremely suspicious.
That is actually not all that unusual. Descends and climbs happen, quite often in fact, especially in europes pretty crowded airspace. They usually do know how much time they have for their service, the rest usually not. Had the case once where we climbed to 410 and then had to descend down to 200 right away just to get out of turbulences. Nobody ever asked what we were doing or why we were so low. They never noticed the descend, just that the turbulences weren't as severe anymore.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 13:43
  #3064 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
That is actually not all that unusual. Descends and climbs happen, quite often in fact, especially in europes pretty crowded airspace. They usually do know how much time they have for their service, the rest usually not. Had the case once where we climbed to 410 and then had to descend down to 200 right away just to get out of turbulences. Nobody ever asked what we were doing or why we were so low. They never noticed the descend, just that the turbulences weren't as severe anymore.
They probably asked no questions as you would have announced what you were doing. However, continuing high rate descent into mountains while keeping the captain locked out would have not gone unnoticed would it
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 13:50
  #3065 (permalink)  
 
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Lubitz may have planned his atrocity years ago, perhaps during the long break in his training. Society doesn't have a good way to ferret out those people without a conscience. Psychologists need to develop those tests. "if an instructor gives you a poor grade on a test, what would you want to do to the instructor if you could get away with it?"

A good first step would to give tests to pilots that would try to determine if pilots have a functioning conscience.

Any objection from the pilots here?
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 13:53
  #3066 (permalink)  
 
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CC in FD is not at all a tentpeg stopper; for instance:
Bad guys infiltrate a number of sleepers who wait, for years if necessary, for opportunity to bludgeon single pilot.
Why bother with CC and why wait all that time. Why not train a few people to fly (P2F) and get jobs with carriers. Then there will be lots of easy opportunities to take control and crash the aircraft when the other pilot leave the cockpit. Without a "two person rule", that so many professional flight crew seem so set against, what could be easier?
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:20
  #3067 (permalink)  
 
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Why bother with CC and why wait all that time. Why not train a few people to fly (P2F) and get jobs with carriers. Then there will be lots of easy opportunities to take control and crash the aircraft when the other pilot leave the cockpit. Without a "two person rule", that so many professional flight crew seem so set against, what could be easie
Yup, that would be possible. However, much much more difficult. First you have to be one of the lucky few ones who pass the selection criteria, then the background checks, then you need to upfront 100k€ to train and two years of time in which you have to be perfectly immersed into the target society (weirdos do get reported). Check out the wannabe forums how difficult it is to get that job.

All still possible, but now with just 4 weeks of training, a perfunctory check, no upfront cost at all you know you will be there.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:33
  #3068 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Basil View Post
Even if they have the education and ability, it would take about a year and a pile of money to get the frozen ATPL. Then they need the P2F job which won't be with a major.
Much quicker and easier to put a number of CC in position.
Quick and easy are western traits. How long has it been since 9/11? A strategy to put 'their' pilots into cockpits could be coming to fruition now with 'their' pilots possibly even captains on the smaller airlines.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:40
  #3069 (permalink)  
 
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(Not an aviation or medical professional.)
Have I missed something? I've seen no mention of this guy's earlier, pre-flying background. School? What the other kids thought? Home? Social status?
The depression diagnosis might be irrelevant/wrong - like flu and Ebola have similar symptoms. The mental state to commit mass murder (without political motive, where you are killing the enemy) seems so uncommon that the medical profession may not have enough data to predict it.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:46
  #3070 (permalink)  
 
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So what everyone seems to want is to have the medical profession determine if pilots are fit to fly both physically and mentally.
Does it bother anyone that we are asking a profession that is unable to police its self and kills more people every year by a order of magnitude then airlines through rampant drug abuse, alcohol abuse and malpractice to police another profession?
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:56
  #3071 (permalink)  
 
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Oddly enough prior to 911 FDs were much less often with only the 2 crew up front. This was down to the fact that there would be regular FD visits from interested passengers, or the jumpseat would be occupied by ATCOs or other aviation related personnel. During my ATC career I spent about 90% of my many flights (as pax) in the FD jumpseat. Sometimes (in certain types) there would even be two of us!
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 16:11
  #3072 (permalink)  
 
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For those of you who think recovered pilots who once suffered from depression, or those who suffer it during their careers and recover should never fly again then surely you must support making having a baby disqualifying? I mean perfectly healthy happy people have their lives turned upside down by post natal depression so should women be banned once they have been given birth? After all you never know who is suffering it and many hide it very well.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 16:24
  #3073 (permalink)  
 
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Self-reporting

In an effort to bring a focus onto one component of the large set of issues or problems either (a) created by the GW incident, or (b) put into much starker relief by the incident, the point at which this post is aimed at communicating is that reform of employment-related laws, procedures and regulations is not an unknown animal. Even large-scale reform.

Several statutory examples may be cited (though to make the point, these references are not included here) whereby the laws relating to employment significantly constrain the arbitrary or retaliatory action of an employer, when such employer is confronted by an employee who has taken action of which the employer strongly disapproves. The constant refrain of those posters who, while appearing to support the concept of greater self-reporting in general also withhold stronger support, is that they are convinced the airline company simply would sack (fire, terminate, furlough indefinitely) any pilot who self-reported. So, from a perspective of law reform - which by the way, is somewhat the antithesis of the "do something to reassure the public" because law reform does not happen overnight - from a perspective of wanting to instigate or prompt serious efforts to update and make more effective existing laws, legislating and implementing a solution to the "they'll get sacked, if they self-report" problem is attainable.

But attainable only in the micro sense. A good number of other posters have lamented the sad state of the airline business, and even a well-drafted, wisely implemented, and well-intentioned law reform move will not solve the rest of the problems which demand attention.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 17:55
  #3074 (permalink)  
 
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Sir, that is not quite correct. It is not necessarily a sign of mental illness to get destructive/negative thoughts and emotions that lead to suicidal ideation.
We had extensive (and eye watering) education on the difference between a personality disorder and mental illness, and life changing events whenever a service member would off himself (which was far too common, thanks) over the two decades that I was a serving officer.

Unless you define mental illness as "not normal, like me"
Not normal and suicidal are not the same thing.
Not normal doesn't mean mental illness, of course.
But suicide is a serious mental malfunction, thus I might ask you what do you mean by "illness", if it is different ?
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:00
  #3075 (permalink)  
 
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Suicide MIGHT be a serious mental malfunction, but I believe it is entirely possible to kill oneself as the result of an entirely logical process. For example:

old, tired, ill, going to get worse, no dependants, so lets do it with a minimum of inconvenience to third parties and pain to myself.

Entirely logical I submit.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:12
  #3076 (permalink)  
 
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Let's step back from the FD door, as a means of prevention. There are probably more posts now on this subject than there were originally from the hypoxia theorists.
ALL that counts is the suitability of the flight deck crew for the job they are required to do. Fly the aircraft from A to B.
Are they mentally fit for purpose? Are they physically fit for purpose?
Are they trained, and current, to meet any scenario that faces them on any particular flight? To the point where there is zero risk of 'pilot error', whatever?

Only then will the travelling, paying public be reassured into placing their trust, lives and faith into their hands.
It would appear that hose who control and enforce such matters are still falling short of their responsibilities.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:21
  #3077 (permalink)  
 
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Well, it's up to the lawyers, now! Very likely both Germanwings and Lufthansa will be in serious financial trouble. Lufthansa admits it knew Lubitz was unstable; Germanwings spokesperson disclaimed any prior knowlege at all!

For an airline to escape liability it must prove it was entirely free from blame.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:21
  #3078 (permalink)  
 
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. To the point where there is zero risk of 'pilot error', whatever?
There will never be zero risk, thousands fly daily and no one dreams of zero risk. There is no testing, training or pilot selection regime that would assure zero risk. Do you have zero risk when you board a bus, train or cross a street??
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:35
  #3079 (permalink)  
 
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ALL that counts is the suitability of the flight deck crew for the job they are required to do. Fly the aircraft from A to B.
Are they mentally fit for purpose?
Judging from the medical experts above, in that there is no "test" for this, the best you can hope for is "maybe"?

Are they physically fit for purpose?
Once per year they are assessed, and certified as "fit for purpose". In between times it is "self assessed". As detailed elsewhere, given the implications of calling in sick in some airlines' HR policies, it would appear quite often "not". And as also detailed elsewhere, frequently fatigued to the same extent as having imbibed in one or 2 alcoholic drinks

Are they trained, and current, to meet any scenario that faces them on any particular flight?
No - no pilot has ever been trained to meet "any scenario". Twice per year in the Sim, and once per year or 2 via Route Check they are assessed in a program set by the regulator.

To the point where there is zero risk of 'pilot error', whatever?
Never

Only then will the travelling, paying public be reassured into placing their trust, lives and faith into their hands.
Best they get a train timetable then

It would appear that hose who control and enforce such matters are still falling short of their responsibilities.
I personally think the regulators do a pretty good job, but not perfect. But you seem to have some expectation of their responsibilities that far exceeds realism
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:42
  #3080 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Medical model

@Sailvi767 yes. Because it is based on the medical model which determines the causes of a person´s problems are located in their body. Whenever the true cause is outside, for example, in regulations or relationships between people, prescribing drugs can only eliminate the present symptoms and trigger new ones.

"A 2010-survey by the Norwegian public service broadcaster, NRK, revealed that half of the pilots have fallen asleep or dozed off while on duty, with almost 4 out of 5 pilots stating they have felt too tired to be in the cockpit."
https://www.eurocockpit.be/stories/2...-pilot-fatigue
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