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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 1st Apr 2015, 08:36
  #2821 (permalink)  
 
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ChissayLuke

Agree with your comments, entirely. But, there is much more to all this than meets the eye of the passenger & general public.
What needs to be done needs to be determined soberly & exhaustively - not as a knee jerk reaction which causes more harm than good.
There are so many parameters to examine before something effective can be done. What has been done, up to now, does qualify as a knee jerk reaction & threatens to be largely ineffective, or even counter-productive.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 08:40
  #2822 (permalink)  
 
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How the airline, regulator, etc. etc. provides this is for them. And it would appear, they failed badly in this instance.
I have seen nothing to say they did fail badly here? Not saying they did not, but no hard evidence to date.

Pilots would need to be completely honest
There are indications this was the aspect that failed.

There are accounts that the pilot had in the past, "suicidal thoughts/tendencies(?)". I will leave experts to decide if this form is suicide is always a risk, or a particular form? And whether anybody with such thoughts should be permanently barred from flying. Obvious problems with that discussed above.

However, I would add pilots (and Cabin Crew) do commit suicide - no idea of % compared to the rest of the population? However, if any previous history of suicidal thoughts were a bar to a Class 1, then surely every pilot suicide - even well away from work - would merit a high level inquiry as to why they were holding a Class 1?

There's a very big can of worms out there, and I'd rather leave it to the experts to interpret and recommend.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 08:48
  #2823 (permalink)  
 
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Phone video might auto upload

If a phone survived the crash, then it is possible that it uploaded a video file to the cloud. I know lots of people whose partners know their passwords and would be able to retrieve a file.

There probably was no signal on the mountain, however if the searchers did not put any phones in metal boxes, it is possible that they uploaded as soon as they got to civilisation.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 09:06
  #2824 (permalink)  
 
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Kcockayne - agreed

Nigelondraft- phrases like leaving it to the experts lack relevance to my post; sorry. I expressd a view of what the travelling public might feel entitled to expect. And, I believe, it is hard to argue against this.
Also that 'experts', imho, have a long way to go before they get it right.
Greater scrutiny and openness of both crew and 'expert' is needed.
And genuine accountability. To the travelling public. Who pay.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 09:39
  #2825 (permalink)  
 
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To me, all that is relevant here, is the safety of the travelling public, who are obliged to place their trust in whatever FD crew are flying the plane on that particular day. And assume that the airlines, regulators, or whoever, are doing whatever it takes to ensure that this trust is well placed. That the crew are healthy in every particular, and on top of their game for whatever hazard they might have to face.
If a pilot loses his license for any medical, conduct, mental problem, then so be it. It is a risk they accept when signing up, as is the case in many other professions.
And I doubt that any of the friends and relations of the dead 150 or so would say different.m
Uhm, no.
The travelling public is not obliged to place their trust in anyone.
The travelling public WILLINGLY CHOSE to place their trust in that particular flight. They chose it because it made economic sense to them. I seriously doubt somebody forced the passengers to get on that plane. They could have gone there by another flight, car, train, etc.
And if - as a pilot - I accept the risks of flying as my profession, so should the travelling public. Flying is inherently dangerous, and not every tragedy can be prevented.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 09:57
  #2826 (permalink)  

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Hmm. In the FAA world, if one pilot exits the cockpit while the aircraft is at or above FL250, the remaining pilot must wear the 02 mask. Ref: 14 CFR 121.333(c)(3)

However, I don't think there is a similar regulation in Europe that mandates wearing the O2 mask while cruising at FL380. Maybe someone more familiar with Germanwings ops can comment?
Not sure why you think someone who is about to throw an aircraft into the side of a mountain is going to be concerned with compliance, so kinda irrelevant.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 10:02
  #2827 (permalink)  
 
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however given MH 370 having this scenario as a possibility it has highlighted it far more than previous incidences and therefore it seems the industry is making all the correct moves to pacify the SLF.
Trouble with introducing MH370 is we do not know what happened?

I think there is a high probability it was human driven i.e. not a technical problem. But was it the Capt? FO? Cabin Crew? Passenger? How did the door assist (or hinder?) the plan?

There is of course the rather unfortunate possibility that the wash-up of Germanwings makes certain conclusions about Mental Health and the Door policy - and a week later the MH370 CVY/FDR are found and completely contradict the conclusions
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 10:31
  #2828 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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The medical regs will be reviewed, with far greater scrutiny of the medical history. Just like epilepsy at any time is a bar, so now will certain mental health issues fall into that category.

Two on the FD at all times will mandatory. A measure of mitigation. The majority were doing this anyway.

Company policies will change so that confidential reporting of colleagues will become far more frequent. Self reporting of significant changes in your private life will be required? Risk assessment by the trick cyclists everytime.

Let the witch hunt begin.........
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 11:00
  #2829 (permalink)  
 
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Dirtyprop, thanks for your reply.
You epitomise the problem. Especially if you really are a commercial pilot.
Minimilisation of risk, should be the pursuit of all. You seem pretty laissez-faire.

The pax on this flight had no reason to anticipate their death on this particular flight. That you appear to consider such risk acceptable beggars belief.

Last edited by ChissayLuke; 1st Apr 2015 at 11:11.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 11:14
  #2830 (permalink)  
 
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Isotope, you didn't mention the crowbar he fetched from the back of the aircraft.

Daily Telegraph (UK) today. Video apparently from the back of the aircraft and people not identified.

Last edited by Wader2; 1st Apr 2015 at 11:40.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 11:22
  #2831 (permalink)  
 
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Yes sick ghouls for whom this tragic event is a form of grim entertainment. Much like the fake CVR recordings. If true I hope that they never make it online. I think those murdered deserve one last bit of dignity. Many of us pilots are against video cameras in the flight deck to avoid our last moments being filmed. In this instance innocent passengers, the ones we are charged with protecting have had their final moments recorded and I for one hope their privacy is protected in the same manner many of us pilots want protected. Nothing can be gained from publishing the video.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 12:24
  #2832 (permalink)  
 
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Chissayluke

Dirtyprop, thanks for your reply.
You epitomise the problem. Especially if you really are a commercial pilot.
Minimilisation of risk, should be the pursuit of all. You seem pretty laissez-faire.

The pax on this flight had no reason to anticipate their death on this particular flight. That you appear to consider such risk acceptable beggars belief.
A little too hard a response on Dirtyprop

I also support his meaning, maybe not in the same words.

I also agree that Minimilisation of risk should be the pursuit of all.

In my opinion, most passengers don't give a thought to how much risk they live in everyday and do put their trust in others to minimize risk.

This investigation is still in its earliest stages (in spite of the conclusions on this board) and as yet I can not see all the balances of competing risks at play for example medical privacy vs reaction, single pilot vs a locked door etc.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 12:45
  #2833 (permalink)  
 
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Isotope Toast asked:

"Do we know he flipped the switch from CVR data? "

There's no data on the CVR, just separate audio recordings from each pilot's headset microphone and from a general microphone in the instrument panel.

The operation of that guarded cockpit-door switch might not produce much sound at all, it may be unlikely to be audible at the co-pilot's headset microphone or at the instrument-panel microphone.

I've not read of the CVR recording including the sound of the door-open request or override audio-alerts. Either the investigators felt this was not sufficiently important to include in their briefing or perhaps the sound was inhibited by prior movement of the switch to the "lock" position.

The FDR records data including (I believe) some switch activation relating to flight controls. But, so far as I know from what I have read, it does not include the operation of the cockpit door lock/unlock switch. The FDR memory unit has not yet been found anyway.

It does look like the article you refer to (and quite a few others) is very poor quality as you say.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 12:49
  #2834 (permalink)  
 
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Dirtyprop, thanks for your reply.
You epitomise the problem. Especially if you really are a commercial pilot.
Minimilisation of risk, should be the pursuit of all. You seem pretty laissez-faire.

The pax on this flight had no reason to anticipate their death on this particular flight. That you appear to consider such risk acceptable beggars belief.
The risks have already been minimized.
Proof of that is the outstanding safety record of this industry. Also, the pursuit of all airlines is profit. No profit, no airline.
Which is the same pursuit of passengers (saving) when they freely choose how to travel.
No one can anticipate their own death. But like it or not, death is part of life. It can happen to anyone in any possible way. If you really think you can completely eliminate any risk from your life or when you travel (by plane or other means), you're mistaken.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 13:21
  #2835 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DirtyProp View Post
The risks have already been minimized.
Proof of that is the outstanding safety record of this industry. Also, the pursuit of all airlines is profit. No profit, no airline.
Which is the same pursuit of passengers (saving) when they freely choose how to travel.
No one can anticipate their own death. But like it or not, death is part of life. It can happen to anyone in any possible way. If you really think you can completely eliminate any risk from your life or when you travel (by plane or other means), you're mistaken.
DEATH may be inevitable and impossible to eliminate as a risk, but MASS MURDER by someone having a psychotic episode does NOT need to be part of that equation during air travel. Full stop.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 13:42
  #2836 (permalink)  
 
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It is interesting - the only other 'bulk' public transportation system I can think of where a single person can be at the controls and the numbers affected 100 or more is the train. We saw the 'suicide/murder' committed at Moorgate station in 1975.

Would it be of value to see what the train systems have done about the psychological profiles of their drivers?
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 13:57
  #2837 (permalink)  
 
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The A320 EGPWS has forward looking terrain avoidance capability, so the 'terrain - pull up' could be triggered at that altitude.
Wouldn't the 'Terrain Awareness and Display' in a Airbus call "TERRAIN AHEAD - PULL UP!" ?
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 14:05
  #2838 (permalink)  
 
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the SD card

I do not believe this. The chances of an SD card being found in those circumstances is astronomical - so much so that it deserves no consideration at all.
If the remains of a mobile phone CONTAINING the SD card had been reported then I would think differently.
<sentence removed>
The possibility that one of the investigators or recovery people on the ground has found the thing and sold it to the media is also highly unlikely. Given the attention this incident has generated and the number of innocent people murdered, I cannot believe that this is what happened.
If it really did then the action is unconscionable and the gutter press who have published it are beyond the pale.
But then, in the filthy business of peddling innuendo and false information, I suppose anything is possible.

Last edited by Xeque; 2nd Apr 2015 at 01:49. Reason: Reference to sounds that could not possibly be heard in the cabin. My apologies.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 14:11
  #2839 (permalink)  
 
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There have been many posts regarding the mental state of the copilot, most of which conclude that he was suffering from some form of mental illness. He may well have previously received treatment for depression or other ailments, but it is not necessary to invoke some form of psychosis to explain his actions.

For as long as people have lived in social groups, certain bounds have been imposed on individual behaviour. Unacceptable behaviour was punished by expulsion from the group or by other penalties designed to enforce compliance. Religious beliefs also led to cohesion with a given society, although also responsible for many conflicts with other groups. It was the fear of the consequences of getting caught that kept people on the straight and narrow.

Modern society, the lack of religious belief and the general breakdown of extended family groups has contributed to an overall lack of control over the actions of individuals. indeed many people believe that they should have the absolute freedom to do as they wish, although generally with the caveat that their actions should not harm others.

In a society where murder and serious crime is mass entertainment on prime time TV is it any wonder that people grow up with a skewed sense of what is acceptable behaviour?

Given the above statements, I would propose that someone who has achieved their life's dream and who is faced with losing everything due to a medical ailment or disiplinary action may well rationalise that a spectacular murder/suicide is a logical course of action to take. We all want to leave our mark on the world, either by having children, gaining fame or renown by good works, or perhaps by performing an act so shocking that it will be remembered. You don't have to be mad to consider crashing a plane full of passengers into a mountain. It is a logical solution to an unhappy situation if you are not constrained by morals and ethics.

Just another symptom of the pressures of modern society and the breakdown of morals and ethics.

Constant monitoring of pilots will not prevent someone who is determined to do harm from crashing a plane but instilling a sense of responsibility and pride in the job just might help a bit in preventing the mental processes that lead to a crash being the most logical solution to an individual's problems.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 14:23
  #2840 (permalink)  
 
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DEATH may be inevitable and impossible to eliminate as a risk, but MASS MURDER by someone having a psychotic episode does NOT need to be part of that equation during air travel. Full stop.
And according to the statistics it is NOT.

ASN News List of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots

You can all stop freaking out.
Or you can provide for your own transportation so you will be totally sure to know the driver.
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