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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 31st Mar 2015, 20:24
  #2781 (permalink)  
 
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The information there is BS
You would never have a"sink rate" at 13000ft, nor a "terrain, pull up" if the levations are around 6800ft
Puzzled me as well as being absurd... this 'investigation' is becoming worryingly surreal in its reporting.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 20:27
  #2782 (permalink)  
 
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Kneejerk reaction havng 2 "crew" up front at all times? A cabin crew, no disrespect to the profession, gets in with minimal training, 4-6 weeks and minimal back ground check only to end up in front.

Seriously? Did they not think this one through, how easy would it be now for those who are so inclined to get on a course and within a few months they have full unfettered access to any flight deck over Europe.

This is not solving the underlying problem, and no it is not just the mental state of the FO, it is the total erosion of the terms and conditions in the airline world where P2F is becoming the norm in the low cost sector, not the exception.

Unless the white elephant in the room gets addressed, this won't be the last in Europe, how many others are out there who have been pushed to breaking point and see this as a way out and as a way to highlight their plight in absentia.

Do you really know the guy/girl sitting on your right? Do you? You trust him with your life? How about that newly recruited CC taking your place when you go for a comfort break?

This is not a solution, this is creating an even larger problem then we already have.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 20:39
  #2783 (permalink)  
 
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papershuffler!

Way to go, comic relief, super-succinct too!
On the release of news reports of - reportedly - a cellphone's memory and a video of the fateful final moments in flight: of course opportunists, some of them in the service, or hoping to be in the service, of the families of the victims, are trying to build a public mindset about the suffering the victims endured. Ambulance chaser - now, how does a person say that in French, translated to German, translated thence to English? The victims' families ultimately will deserve compensation, no doubt. But sensationalism is the handmaiden of the greedy, and leaks are their currency. And: if only Henry had been possessed of the sense to.....think for himself.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 20:54
  #2784 (permalink)  
 
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Dusseldorf, Germany (CNN)—[Breaking news update, posted at 4:11 p.m. ET]

Lt. Col. Jean-Marc Menichini, a French Gendarmerie spokesman in charge of communications on rescue efforts around the Germanwings crash site, told CNN that the Paris Match and Bild reports of a video recorded in the final seconds before the crash were "completely wrong" and "unwarranted." He explained that cell phones have been collected on the site but that they "hadn't been exploited yet."
Reports: Video found in Germanwings wreckage - CNN.com

The accompanying CNN clip has some babble about a recovered 'SIM' card that supposedly contained the recording. I don't think you can record much video on a SIM card.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 20:55
  #2785 (permalink)  
 
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Apparently a Dutch 777 captain 'predicted' the probability of the Germanwings crash.

Dutch pilot predicted French Alps crash - Telegraph

Perhaps Nigel on Draft needs to have a quiet word with him
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:02
  #2786 (permalink)  
 
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@Airbubba

The accompanying CNN clip has some babble about a recovered 'SIM' card that supposedly contained the recording. I don't think you can record much video on a SIM card.
Well even with a cheap smart phone you can take videos of 5 mins and longer.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:08
  #2787 (permalink)  
 
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FDR Recovery Difficulty

The investigation report on UA93 states the CVR was recovered 25 feet below ground. It does not say it was in the crater on top of the earth - it was under 25 feet of earth. Assuming this aircraft struck ground at nearly the same speed, it would indicate the possible difficulty in finding the memory module. I addition, the impact was apparently into the side of a ridge, not at the bottom of the valley where much of the debris was recovered. If it was into the side, the impact would have dislodged a great deal of earth with which the data module is intermixed. It would be a surprise if it was recovered quickly.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:09
  #2788 (permalink)  
 
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Ian

I have no issue with what the Dutch Capt wrote - agree with him, and as I earlier said, when I excused myself sometimes I would joke to the FO "and where are we diverting to...?" post the Ethiopian event.

My concern is the knee-jerk reaction that the whole issue is solved by adding a FA to the mix. This solves some issues, but creates many others? If one reads the EASA/CAA recommendation closely, and what the BEA stated today - adding the "2nd crew" is not the complete answer.

What is needed is a review - as per the EASA recommendation, and now the BEA - of the complete Risk Assessment over the door etc. I do not envy those carrying out that task, they will never be told in hindsight they are right - just as here, after an accident "they got it wrong".

If the GW accident scenario is correct (which I think it is), the solution is not to allow suicidal pilots on the Flt Deck, and mitigate that with an FA. The solution is to avoid, somehow, those pilots whilst in that state of mind, being on the Flt Deck surely? (BEA point 2)
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:14
  #2789 (permalink)  
 
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The accompanying CNN clip has some babble about a recovered 'SIM' card that supposedly contained the recording. I don't think you can record much video on a SIM card.
Of course not but microSD-card can contain a lot of video and layman can easily confuse the two.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:27
  #2790 (permalink)  
 
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If the GW accident scenario is correct (which I think it is), the solution is not to allow suicidal pilots on the Flt Deck, and mitigate that with an FA. The solution is to avoid, somehow, those pilots whilst in that state of mind, being on the Flt Deck surely? (BEA point 2)
My personal experience is that most suicidal persons prefer to be alone, or at least feel alone at the time. An "audience of one" even if it were a case of going out in a blaze of revengeful anger and glory. So the FA in the cockpit could well be at least a hinderance in general; albeit of unknown specific usefulness in this case.

Last edited by DrPhillipa; 31st Mar 2015 at 23:20.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:32
  #2791 (permalink)  
 
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The references to a "SIM" card is obviously wrong; it would be a microSD card that contains the video and I would also say that it is highly probable that there will be a couple of recordings extracted since it is logical that a couple of passengers shot video with their devices.

I think the first videos where being shot when it became evident to those on the forward rows that there was a problem, i.e. when the captain was unable to get back to the flight deck.

To me, it is logical to assume the existence of video recordings of the take-off, initial climb, perhaps some climb-out and then a couple of several minutes long ones of the descent, which can be synchronized with the CVR.

The content of those recordings will be pretty obvious with a focus on the captain trying to get back in, worried passengers, perhaps even passengers trying to assist the captain and PA callouts from the cabin crew, which I think is probable) and then screams and praying when it became evident that the aircraft was descending into the mountains. If someone "fake" a recording, I am afraid that the "fake" won't be far off the true content of such recordings.

I would also bet on at least 10 recordings if not more made by different passengers (we can simply assume that most people on this flight had a phone with decent camcorder).

The timeline stated in the article about "13,000 feet" is obviously wrong and is the result of journalistic twisting. I would assume that there will be a combination of radio altimeter "one thousand feet", "five hundred" and "one hundred" callouts paired with the GPWS warnings even if I haven't seen any source mentioning it.

I wouldn't be surprised of some of the video recordings will leak out and end up on YouTube and/or other sharing sites, especially when a couple of videos are recovered.

Edit: The heavy "shake" mentioned in the article indicates that there was an initial impact before the aircraft hit the mountain. I can't remember seeing anything about such an event and it must be some wreckage there then.

From the pictures, I got the impression that the A320 hit the mountain ridge close to the top and disintegrated with everything "raining" down from above. We are extremely lucky that the CVR survived even if its release should have been managed in a different way.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:38
  #2792 (permalink)  
 
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My personal eyperience is that most suicidal persons prefer to be alone, or at least feel alone at the time. An "audience of one" even if it were a case of going out in a blaze of revengeful anger and glory. So the FA in the cockpit could well be at least a hinderance in general; albeit of unknown specific usefulness in this case
Maybe so, but as above, that is to me, for the airline and/or regulator to decide as part of the overall risk assessment - and ultimately take responsibility for. Not PPRuNe!

Hi IceFlyer
But when the airlines would say that the pilots must do this test every half year, it would be very safe to prevent those suicides
I have to ask, what is it to do with the Airlines? Is it really the task of an airline to decide if a pilot is fit to fly?

It is the regulator who defines the medical requirements, it is the regulator who runs the medical checks and issues the medical certificates. Surely it is they, assuming this co-pilot had a valid medical, who have to answer why he had one?
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:50
  #2793 (permalink)  
 
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Phone video retrieved

In this article in The Guardian, the information about the phone video footage is published concurrently with Lufthansa saying that they've handed over an email to investigators that was from Lubitz to Lufthansa training school informing them of his serious depressive episode.....and Lufthansa will be cancelling their 60th anniversary festivities in April.
Andreas Lubitz told Lufthansa flight school of 'serious depressive episode' | World news | The Guardian
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 21:58
  #2794 (permalink)  
 
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crash survivable memory unit

[QUOTE=Vinnie Boombatz;8927825]@oldoberon, 31 Mar 2015 at 09:37 --

There are a variety of recorder models and manufacturers.
(...)
"The SSFDR's crash survivable memory unit (CSMU) provides for complete data recovery when subjected to the crash conditions stipulated in ED-55 and ED-56a: Impact Shock 3400G, 6.5 milliseconds . . . "

Electronics is my game. Looking at diagrams of CVR's and FDR's they have a number of sub assemblies in a sheet metal housing. The memory module, or "crash survivable memory unit" (thanks Vinnie) is the part that matters after a crash. It's armored in a cylindrical stainless steel casing, and being heavy, it COULD be torn from the other parts of the recorder, but I think it unlikely that it was destroyed. It may be imbedded in the mountainside, covered by a slide, or it may have flown or rolled some distance, but I believe they will find it. I have read that "part of the FDR has been found", but have also read a denial, that NO part of it has been found. Talk of the memory card "flying out" seems like BS, that "crash survivable memory unit" is very rugged, designed to withstand impact, fire, and submersion. I think someone heard "memory unit" and pictured the SD card in their camera or phone instead of a stainless steel cylinder.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 22:03
  #2795 (permalink)  
 
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Regulatory, indeed

I only wish to concur strongly and emphatically with the points Nigel on Draft has made in the two (2) most current posts. The question of fitness to fly a certificated air transport category aircraft is a matter which must be regulated by each State's national laws, policies and regulations. These in turn must be (if the State is a party to the Chicago Convention) consistent with and faithful to the ICAO Annexes, SARPs and related guidance. However.....as their name implies, SARPs include not only Standards, but also Recommended Practices.
Solving the problem of cockpit access will not be easy. Every State with a major civil aviation sector naturally will tend to -- confirmation bias? -- favor its own way of thinking about such matters. But, uniformity is an underlying principle of the current international civil aviation order. And ordinary, or routine if you prefer, processes in this arena - whether at the EASA or FAA level, or with ICAO at a more inclusive international level - do not move quickly.
But solving the procedural and mechanistic issues around FD access will seem simple, compared to reform, if not "systemic reset", around mental wellness, fitness to fly, and questions of mental illness.
One thing everyone does agree on, or should agree on IMO, is that knee-jerks produce pains where discomfort was not within the scope of the knee's, or the jerk's, intent.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 22:18
  #2796 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nessim View Post
(That incident was raised about 100 pages ago, FWIW. )
Could be a worthwhile line of inquire ... but if the FO put on his O2 mask, would that not mitigate the effects?
Putting on the O2 masks seems to be what the captain and FO did in that case.
As I read the summary in the previous post, in the 2010 incident they were at lower altitude and presumably at lower cabin altitude.
Not sure if being at a higher cabin altitude would accelerate the effects of that kind of fumes intrusion into the cockpit.
A problem of being able to fit that hazard into this incident is that after a 350 kt impact with a mountain, whatever might have led to a leak is probably beyond forensic analysis due to kinetic damage/destruction.
Beyond that, the fumes hypothesis does not seem to explain entering a descent and locking others out of the cabin, does it?

If it does, how does it?
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 22:28
  #2797 (permalink)  
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"However, Lieutenant Colonel Jean-Marc Menichini, a high ranking official involved in the recovery operation, has categorically denied that any mobile phone footage had been found by investigators at the site."
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 22:50
  #2798 (permalink)  
 
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"However, Lieutenant Colonel Jean-Marc Menichini, a high ranking official involved in the recovery operation, has categorically denied that any mobile phone footage had been found by investigators at the site."
Is this an official denial, or a leaked one? It's becoming hard to know.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 22:55
  #2799 (permalink)  
 
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I calculated that at 500 kmh a 50 m plane would take a fraction of second to crash. I can only say it was mercifully extremely quick. It takes almost a whole second for a thought to be registered, and there was no time for that, there would have been no recognizance of the crash.

If one were to get a serious diagnosis from a doctor one day, there would be a lot of time to think about it.

What can we do, we are mortal, that is simply how it is.

I hope the papers will not make too ugly a scene if there are video recordings.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 23:32
  #2800 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting that the claim is made that the FO was wearing an O2 mask.
Hmm. In the FAA world, if one pilot exits the cockpit while the aircraft is at or above FL250, the remaining pilot must wear the 02 mask. Ref: 14 CFR 121.333(c)(3)

However, I don't think there is a similar regulation in Europe that mandates wearing the O2 mask while cruising at FL380. Maybe someone more familiar with Germanwings ops can comment?
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