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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:45
  #2021 (permalink)  
 
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@the hawk

I think we have first to define bullying. Is that possible?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:46
  #2022 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if there is bullying at almost every airline (almost every workplace). When does it qualify as a "culture"?
I'm guessing he was addressed as the German equivalent of a trolley dolly?

I tend to call it banter and we have lots of it where I work. Banter turns into bullying if one or two ring leading individuals take it upon themselves to constantly 'banter' someone.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:51
  #2023 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Pace... re:
A master key hung around the neck of the exiting crew member which would override any blocking attempt by the remaining crew member in the cockpit would work with a proviso...
Still waiting for a response from a A320 Captain regarding whether this could work ?
Before seeking a solution, we need to clearly define the problem?

With this crash what is the "problem" we are trying to solve? The ill FO on the Flight Deck, or the Captain being locked out of the Flight Deck as per design requirements?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:57
  #2024 (permalink)  
 
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illness

In the US, doctors cannot share personal health information (PHI) without consent.

However, in some circumstances, a patient can be involuntarily committed for treatment. It's an extreme step, usually warranted only when the patient is a danger to himself or others. Obviously, this would have a negative impact on the person's career.

There should be a middle ground. How would people feel if doctors were allowed to convey to the airline a pilot's fitness for duty without specifying the exact reason?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:57
  #2025 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure abhorent thought process brought on by thinking more of yourself than others is 'illness'
It may lead to more extreme thought/action but the root cause is lack of self-control or being able to impose self-restraint or limits
This is developed over years from a young age through guidance and imposed discipline
Learning to accept you most likely will not get all you want

Cancer is an illness but does not lead to mass homicide

Mental 'illness' needs catagorized differently since it can have severe consequences for the individual and society

What is difference between what this guy did and a suicide bomber?
Documentation, he could afford to be treated
The poor terrorist could not
But both results are the same
Both are obviously 'crazy' and have a disturbed/distorted thought process
ANYONE who kills dozens for ANY reason is not mentally healthy
Both are 'evil'
Why are people afraid to say this?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:58
  #2026 (permalink)  
 
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The key pad access procedure is there in case of incapacitation, not normal access. Well at least at my company.
Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
But what if the pilot that left the fd can't remember the emergency code?
If the pilot can't remember the emergency code he can ask one of the Flight Attendants. They all have to know it.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:58
  #2027 (permalink)  
 
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As others have mentioned the FDR seems to have vanished ?!
It could be buried. Once the surface debris has been cleaned up, a sweep with metal detectors might locate it.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:00
  #2028 (permalink)  
 
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There there poor little darlings........overworked, underpaid, paying to fly too......................booo hooo!
I think you misunderstand entirely, Landflap. The point is not to excuse what has happened, or the person who did it, but to learn from it. How many more Lubitzes are out there? How many more Lubitzes is the industry creating? And if you don't ask these uncomfortable questions, how can you prevent this happening again?

As we have all been told so many times in CRM, the holes in the cheese all have to line up for an accident to take place. In other words, there was more than one hole in the cheese here.

So what are the other holes are there, in this cheese?

... Did the selection process play a part? Was this self-selection, or was Lubitz the best of the bunch?
... What about these do-gooders, who say we should not stigmatise mental health (like that letter by psychacrists). Did they pressurise Lufthansa to keep Lubitz?
... Doctors who cannot even advise authorities, if they think they have a mass murderer on their hands. If a patient confesses to the doc that he is about to kill someone, is the doc really duty-bound to keep quiet? If so, something is very wrong.
... Authorities who knee-jerked into locked doors - and in their ignorance genuinely thought we would never have to leave the flightdeck during a 4-hour flight. (a locked door that is opened ten times in a flight, is not a locked door)
... Authorities who allowed companies to hit every flight duty limitation in the book - simultaneously - and did nothing about it.
... Authorities who ordered pilots to stand outside and guard the aircraft, until every passenger had boarded and the doors were closed (do you remember that nonsense...!!)
... Authorities who allowed companies to stop serving crew food, and then allowed security to confiscate any food the crew brought themselves (do you remember that nonsense). (probably does not pertain to Germanwings)

How many other holes in this particular cheese, can readers think of? And why did nobody discuss and close those holes, before this incident? What are we paying the aviation authorities to do, bar drink coffee and have a chat about the latest soap opera?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:01
  #2029 (permalink)  
 
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Mental Health

There are an awful lot of armchair pilots chucking in theories and a fair amount of nonsense here.


So as a professional pilot, let me tell you my experience of a mental health issue.


I had been flying around 12 years and suffered reactionary depression from a serious life event. I sought help from my GP and was signed off work and prescribed anti-depressants and sleeping tablets. In accordance with the established regulations I reported the matter to my employer and the UK CAA and received a temporary unfit letter. It took time to recover and I used every tool available, counselling, medication and so on. I was off medication and about to return to work for what I hoped would be a managed return when I was disciplined by my airline for absence. I was given a final warning despite my, and Balpa's best efforts. I struggled with the concept of returning to work in what would be a difficult set of circumstances and eventually relapsed into depression again. I had hoped I would have been treated with respect and dignity, I was not.


I was never given a golden ticket into a shiny cockpit. I worked my way their, the old way, PPL, CPL, FI, FO and so on and became a captain at my company and happily flew for them for 9 years without any incident or problem, I can't even remember being off with a cold.


I did recover, regained my class 1 medical and hunted for work. It's been 2 years now. I have never flown anything since. I have drifted from job to job and dream of flying almost every day but now accept it is unlikely ever to happen again. I miss it dreadfully and wish almost every day I had not told anyone, but I did and now I'm paying for it big time.


The whole industry needs a serious shake up in terms of viewing of mental health. Performance management by sending pilots to simulators and bashing the hell out of someone who has suffered from depression is not the way forward. If airlines keep treating crew like something on the bottom of their shoe things will never improve.


None of this of course condones what has happened, if indeed the final investigation proves this to be the case and at no point did I ever fancy killing anyone, although my feeling towards the HR manager weren't very nice at the time.....


Anyway, just my experience, from a former ATPL holder.....
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:02
  #2030 (permalink)  
 
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It is only a matter of time until the FDR is recovered.
Question: Does the FDR record the state of the cockpit door switch?

IMHO, making 2 people to be present in cockpit rule will not really prevent situations like this as others have noted.

Can we have a system which recognizes that every thing is ok with the plane and still it is too close to terrain and automatically pulls up and maintains safe level flight?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:07
  #2031 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GearDown&Locked View Post
Screening pilots is not that hard, however airlines HR and/or management current procedures may overlook something that the military do for some time prior to put a multi-million very lethal F-16/F-18/Mirage/Eurofighter/etc in the hands of someone.
There are not many stories of screwed up military pilots that crashed their warbird in the worst possible way. And at first glance most of those topgun military pilots seem a bit beyond of what you might consider ‘normal’.
In terms of numbers you are probably correct. OTOH is you compare the global size of the military pilot pool and civilian pool, you may find there is little difference.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:07
  #2032 (permalink)  
 
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After reading news accounts of the young man's past, it's possible that he never really wanted to be a pilot at all.

He had a high-achieving, financially successful German father with whom he still lived part-time and who was probably paying for the young man's apartment. The piano-teacher mother is barely mentioned - while the son was running half-marathons with his father.

Perhaps the son was always trying to meet his father's high standards. Maybe that's why he "burned out" during pilot training - he may have hated flying. He didn't really want to be a pilot, but knew that "Tomato Andy" the flight attendant, couldn't possibly meet his father's lofty expectations.

He was reportedly having relationship problems - going on holiday in Miami with a male acquaintance; then living with a girlfriend in the apartment.

Inside, this young man might have been a totally different person who hated the life he felt he had to live outwardly. Perhaps his final desperate act was to kill his public persona......
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:08
  #2033 (permalink)  
 
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@Ranger1

...definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive..
It always seems that an affliction served on a third-party is generally considered from the point of view of what was meant, rather than what was felt. All the way from minds scrambling as to why the plane was descending so soon after take-off, to the final unfortunate moment of unbelievable realisation is where the true terror lies!
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:09
  #2034 (permalink)  
 
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In all Organisations there must be basic discipline. And whilst I fully appreciate that aviation is different, an aircraft is an Organisation and it needs a CEO. That being the Captain. It seems to me that having a member of the Cabin Crew serve as a spy on the Flight deck when one of the "Senior Executives" leave temporarily doesn't do much for the discipline or, perhaps more importantly, morale in this Organisation?
In every business I've dealt with, the CEO has a board of directors or some sort of executive committee looking over his/her shoulder. Get used to it.

In my line of work (engineering) everything I do is subject to peer/group review at a minimum. And there will be subsequent certification analysis and/or testing done to validate the adequacy of my work. People who think they are too good or too smart to be second guessed aren't suited for the job.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:09
  #2035 (permalink)  
 
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Can we have a system which recognizes that every thing is ok with the plane and still it is too close to terrain and automatically pulls up and maintains safe level flight?
present the A/C does not provide any form of protection when it comes to terrain, it merely provide warnings".

This seems outrageous. When the dust has settled, something needs to be done about it.
Why? That's why you have pilots?

Yes - when we have a pilotless aircraft, then things like EGPWS will have built in reactions. Until then they provide warnings, and the pilots take appropriate actions.

Please note, our Operations Manual permits us to ignore (E)GPWS warnings under certain circumstances. The technology maturity is not yet at a point where it can be relied on...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:10
  #2036 (permalink)  
AR1
 
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I'm not sure abhorent thought process brought on by thinking more of yourself than others is 'illness'
......but the root cause is lack of self-control or being able to impose self-restraint or limits
And that's exactly why people keep quiet about it.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:11
  #2037 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by philipat View Post
Not in the industry so admit to ignorance in advance, but after a long career in business at Senior level (G-4/5 so not much commercial experience of late), see some issues:

  1. Problems created by technology are normally best solved by technology. Not sure I really understand the need for a "Third" "Deadlock" option for Flight deck door locking. What does that really achieve?
  2. In all Organisations there must be basic discipline. And whilst I fully appreciate that aviation is different, an aircraft is an Organisation and it needs a CEO. That being the Captain. It seems to me that having a member of the Cabin Crew serve as a spy on the Flight deck when one of the "Senior Executives" leave temporarily doesn't do much for the discipline or, perhaps more importantly, morale in this Organisation? Or perhaps you Guys in aviation view this differently. Perhaps a new CRM (CABIN resource management)?
Has nothing to do with spying. Not a concern, at least for the vast majority.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:12
  #2038 (permalink)  
 
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The 'industry' did not create this guy
Utter nonsense
This guy created this guy

Blaming everything but this guy
The industry
The pay
The security system
The process
Etc

This guy is solely responsible for this
Period

What is scary is pilots are trying to make excuses or transfer responsibility
To justify these actions
Very disturbing

This has happened a few times out of millions and millions of flights involving 100's of 1000's of pilots

This has nothing to do with aviation
The occupation just made it easier and more catastrophic
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:13
  #2039 (permalink)  
 
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In every business I've dealt with, the CEO has a board of directors or some sort of executive committee looking over his/her shoulder. Get used to it.

In my line of work (engineering) everything I do is subject to peer/group review at a minimum
Understood, but are you really suggesting that an airliner pilot must refer to a cabin crew to approve every decision?

I ask again - to those who want a second crew member in the Flight Deck what is their role?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:14
  #2040 (permalink)  
 
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some thoughts

not a pilot - first post here - i'm just an air-enthusiast who loves flying and planes...
wanted to post some thoughts about this disaster.
The speed at which they claimed suicide is alarming - since not all of the facts are known (although that is what this likely is - it's just odd to me that the investigation is sort of being conducted 'live').
the tidbit about him getting 'kurt' when discussing the landing means nothing in my opinion - he had NO way of knowing the captain was gonna leave the FD... it was a short flight - it was more likely on such a short flight that the captain would not leave at any point. there was no way for this copilot to know that this day was the day he could do this. also - "kurt" based on someone's opinion? how was he kurt?

secondly - as far as the passengers knowing what was happening - as a passenger, i would see the captain trying to break down the door and I'd think either it malfunctioned or the co-pilot was in trouble - i'd see the descent and I'd think - we're going to try for an emergency landing - maybe there's a small airport of a piece of flat land up ahead - i'd definitely be freaked out, but i would not assume i had moments to live - i'd be hoping that this gets resolved safely... i would not suspect we were going to be flown into a mountain... until the end. so tragic.

thirdly - regarding the door locks - i'm worried this incident will introduce more complexity and rules that will really not help. if someone is intent on killing everyone - they will do it. the 2 person rule is the only logical solution to MINIMIZE the risk (you get another chance for someone else to open the door) but nothing will mitigate the risk - and we can't get rid of all risk. the door locks i believe are important and I think they should stay. one other thought i have - is it at all possible to allow for the door to be opened remotely by ATC in the even of an emergency? that would be a possible solution - IF they can get ahold of ATC from outside the FD.

finally - the debate about airline pay - i agree with someone else who said higher pay does not equal more stable pilots/won't necessarily solve anything.. that may be true - but higher pay and better benefits would entice a larger pool of candidates into the field... you'd have more pilots and that would be a good thing. as it stands - everyone knows how difficult it is to get into and how stressful it can be (well - not everyone - but anyone who's considered it). also i agree that airlines have become too corporate - these should not be run by accountants and finance folks - it should be pilots, engineers and the like. it shouldn't be about stocks and shareholders... but again - not a pilot - so i don't understand all the politics.
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