Runway excursion by DL MD-80
Realistically: To stop people from grabbing their belongings means to stop them having them in the first place. Getting rid of the overhead bins, forcing them to check EVERYTHING in but a very small bag they can wear on themselfs. Even then, you can't really tell them to keep their wintercoats on during the flight and they will grab them on the way out if there is any chance.
No, it is not nice, no it is not how it should be, but that is how it is.
Now which airline would want to sue passengers who have been through a "suboptimal" experience already? What would the impression be if other authorities did that? You get the evacuees in a room and all those who have their bag with them get arrested?
Again, if we want them to stop taking their stuff, then it has to go in the hold and not be reachable. Now if that is what we can realistically do and what we want to subject passengers to, others will have to decide. Not being able to work during a flight or even read from their tablet e.t.c. due to such rules might indeed cause a lot of folks to simply not bother anymore.
What should be done though is to finally enforce the handbaggage rules properly.
No, it is not nice, no it is not how it should be, but that is how it is.
Now which airline would want to sue passengers who have been through a "suboptimal" experience already? What would the impression be if other authorities did that? You get the evacuees in a room and all those who have their bag with them get arrested?
Again, if we want them to stop taking their stuff, then it has to go in the hold and not be reachable. Now if that is what we can realistically do and what we want to subject passengers to, others will have to decide. Not being able to work during a flight or even read from their tablet e.t.c. due to such rules might indeed cause a lot of folks to simply not bother anymore.
What should be done though is to finally enforce the handbaggage rules properly.
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I wonder whether the pilots or CC of this aircraft took their bags ...?
...I'd like...No...I'd HOPE to think the Captains and F/O priority is the safety and well-being of his/their passengers and crew...
Not his monthly copy of Pilot magazine. Plus, I'm sure their loss would be covered by the airline. Along with all the PAXs belongings?!
Skeleton, I'm sure you'd feel fully justified in bashing everyone out the way whatever the circumstances.
Now, back to real life and the incident actually under discussion: did you read my post? Does it occur to you (1) that the cabin crew may have assessed the situation as not requiring the sort of panic in which pax like you kill others to save themselves, (2) that a passenger standing in the aisle waiting for those ahead may have time to get something out of the overhead without delaying you in the least?
Now, back to real life and the incident actually under discussion: did you read my post? Does it occur to you (1) that the cabin crew may have assessed the situation as not requiring the sort of panic in which pax like you kill others to save themselves, (2) that a passenger standing in the aisle waiting for those ahead may have time to get something out of the overhead without delaying you in the least?
I did not say i would be justified in bashing everyone out the way whatever the circumstances, please do not misquote me. I also made no mention of this particular incident, again please do not misquote me.
I said that in the event of an emergency evacuation called by the crew if you were in my way, getting your hat and coat and you were stopping (delaying) me I would be coming through. Please do not twist my words in future to further your own agenda.
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Since this thread became a discussion about PAX carrying their luggages, my 2 cents. There are just 2 possible alternatives to avoid that:
1 - Don't allow any PAX to carry on their belongings. That way, there won't be much things to be taken out; or
2 - Try to understand why PAX do that, and act properly:
- You know that nobody cheks if each passanger has taken the correct luggage at the belt, so each PAX is responsible for checking it and complaining it someone took it by mistake. And very few can be done if someone just left the airport with your stuff. And very little indenization will be given to you, based on the weight of your luggage. Conclusion: PAX won't put valuable stuff on that, and will take it onboard
- I can't say that it's the rule, but many companies advise you that you shouldn't dispatch valuable itens, like notebooks. Again, PAX will take that onboard.
- Once onboard, you're advised to not forget your personal itens when you arrive. Fly more than once, and you'll have heard that many times: your goods are yours responsability.
And when something goes wrong, and puts you into some stressfull situation, you want people to think properly? In general their behavior will revert to some basic rules: must get out of here, I'm by my own, and I'm able (in the sense that "I can whithstand") taking all my things with me and rush to the exit.
Why would anyone not take his personal belongings? Will anyone stop thinking "this one second that I have to take my things might be precious to someone that is 15 rows behind me" ?
1 - Don't allow any PAX to carry on their belongings. That way, there won't be much things to be taken out; or
2 - Try to understand why PAX do that, and act properly:
- You know that nobody cheks if each passanger has taken the correct luggage at the belt, so each PAX is responsible for checking it and complaining it someone took it by mistake. And very few can be done if someone just left the airport with your stuff. And very little indenization will be given to you, based on the weight of your luggage. Conclusion: PAX won't put valuable stuff on that, and will take it onboard
- I can't say that it's the rule, but many companies advise you that you shouldn't dispatch valuable itens, like notebooks. Again, PAX will take that onboard.
- Once onboard, you're advised to not forget your personal itens when you arrive. Fly more than once, and you'll have heard that many times: your goods are yours responsability.
And when something goes wrong, and puts you into some stressfull situation, you want people to think properly? In general their behavior will revert to some basic rules: must get out of here, I'm by my own, and I'm able (in the sense that "I can whithstand") taking all my things with me and rush to the exit.
Why would anyone not take his personal belongings? Will anyone stop thinking "this one second that I have to take my things might be precious to someone that is 15 rows behind me" ?
How many companies in the US are using TALPA tools? I know their development was led by the FAA but it appears that many U.S. majors (including Delta) are yet to implement them on the line.
Here in Europe, we have been using them this winter and I am a big fan. Looking at the reported conditions ours would give a BA of medium or Medium to poor depending on whether it was snow or slush, whereas the PIREP gave BA good.
The whole point of TALPA was to remove the subjectivity from BA issues and to provide flight crews with some well assessed data. Without inferring anything about this accident, the disparity between reported BA and what TALPA might suggest indicates that it's very much necessary!
Here in Europe, we have been using them this winter and I am a big fan. Looking at the reported conditions ours would give a BA of medium or Medium to poor depending on whether it was snow or slush, whereas the PIREP gave BA good.
The whole point of TALPA was to remove the subjectivity from BA issues and to provide flight crews with some well assessed data. Without inferring anything about this accident, the disparity between reported BA and what TALPA might suggest indicates that it's very much necessary!
The only way to get back directional control is un-reverse and forward idle.
It takes considerable time to wind up the engines from ground idle reverse to full reverse and by the time the engines reach full reverse it is not very effective anyway in the low speed below 80 knot range. In the simulator we often noted difficulty experienced by the PF is locating the reverse idle detent by feel; especially if the idle reverse detent is sometimes ill-defined. In order to quickly reach idle reverse N1, the levers must be moved rapidly (not slowly) down to the reverse detent There is no time to look down to where you think the detent is, as all concentration is outside the cockpit. If the pilot misses the detent at first go and inadvertently goes into forward thrust, this can exacerbate a sideways slide especially if one engine goes to idle reverse while the other goes into forward thrust while winding down towards the idle reverse detent.
Crews that do not have regular practice in the simulator on slippery runway crosswind operations, may be unpleasantly surprised when it happens for real - especially to have the presence of mind to first completely release all braking action which would seen contrary to commonsense handling on a slippery runway. There are several ways to release all braking dependent on aircraft type and this needs to be briefed if a slippery runway crosswind landing is contemplated. From experience in the simulator it takes at least five practice runs (touch-down and roll-outs) before confidence and competence are attained. The correct sequence of actions is vital.
Last edited by Centaurus; 6th Mar 2015 at 11:59.
How many companies in the US are using TALPA tools?
FX Guru
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Passengers, just like pilots and CC, are human beings and react in different ways to emergencies. There will be heroes and there will be people who want to take a bathroom break (FFS, I'm astonished at that one).
I'm in Skeleton's camp. If there is an evacuation and you are looking for your duty free gaspers and are in my way, you lose.
We often see pics of incidents like this where pax have their hand baggage. The KTM incident is another one in the news right now, rucksacks and all. But are there studies of passengers' behaviour? Do the authorities look back and say, "Hey, a lot of the pax took their hand baggage, we ought to be concerned about this."?
Or do they just shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well, it was alright this time."??
I'm in Skeleton's camp. If there is an evacuation and you are looking for your duty free gaspers and are in my way, you lose.
We often see pics of incidents like this where pax have their hand baggage. The KTM incident is another one in the news right now, rucksacks and all. But are there studies of passengers' behaviour? Do the authorities look back and say, "Hey, a lot of the pax took their hand baggage, we ought to be concerned about this."?
Or do they just shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well, it was alright this time."??
The whole evacuation time requirment is rather unrealistic. I was watching a segment on the evac certification on the A-380, and it was done with healthy folks, indoors, think they were paid, and all were wearing comfy sports gear, without bags, and were well briefed. Most importantly they knew why they were there, and had a clear goal of beating the time requirment.
Throw in a surprise evacuation, with zero warning, passengers of all ages/builds/health, bad weather, perhaps no verbal order or delayed order, coats, panic, bags, some doors slides not available, (yes I know the tests disable some egree points) etc.
Human nature is the largest problem, many folks are going to grab their purse or backpack and since it likely carries some important stuff it can be understood (not to say it is worth your life). It would likely be days until they got their stuff back, if it survived. I'll leave my wheelie bag, duty free bag and coat behind thanks- (some won't).
Airlines and their bag fees have made the problem much worse. Thank you to Southwest and few others for bucking this trend.
Throw in a surprise evacuation, with zero warning, passengers of all ages/builds/health, bad weather, perhaps no verbal order or delayed order, coats, panic, bags, some doors slides not available, (yes I know the tests disable some egree points) etc.
Human nature is the largest problem, many folks are going to grab their purse or backpack and since it likely carries some important stuff it can be understood (not to say it is worth your life). It would likely be days until they got their stuff back, if it survived. I'll leave my wheelie bag, duty free bag and coat behind thanks- (some won't).
Airlines and their bag fees have made the problem much worse. Thank you to Southwest and few others for bucking this trend.
Evacuation Demonstration Certification Standard
As before mentioned the evacuation demonstrations are done with prebriefed, reasonably fit people without cabin baggage.
There seems to be enough real world data about the amount of cabin baggage that emerges in real evacuations.
Demonstration evacuations for certification should be performed with the usual cabin baggage carried off by the pax.
If they're not all getting off in time, more doors and slides should be required
There seems to be enough real world data about the amount of cabin baggage that emerges in real evacuations.
Demonstration evacuations for certification should be performed with the usual cabin baggage carried off by the pax.
If they're not all getting off in time, more doors and slides should be required
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Tiller is for Taxi Only
There have been several accidents attributed to improper use of the tiller during takeoff. Then I saw this post from another pilot:
"Over the years of flying right seat on the DC-9 I've seen several Captains regularly grab the tiller just after touch down.
You have to wonder if their feet are still in the game screaming down the runway well over 100 knots.
We had a DC-10 coming in from Hawaii years ago landing on 17C at DFW with a wet runway and depart the runway off to the west into the grass."
Not saying it was the cause here, but boneheads still continue to use the tiller not just for takeoff, but for landing. Incredible!
"Over the years of flying right seat on the DC-9 I've seen several Captains regularly grab the tiller just after touch down.
You have to wonder if their feet are still in the game screaming down the runway well over 100 knots.
We had a DC-10 coming in from Hawaii years ago landing on 17C at DFW with a wet runway and depart the runway off to the west into the grass."
Not saying it was the cause here, but boneheads still continue to use the tiller not just for takeoff, but for landing. Incredible!
Mr Boeing and airbus need central locking on the overhead lockers - when engines go off they unlock hey presto
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MarcK, not mate just yet... yes, locks won't completely eliminate the problem, but it will mean that pax will only be able to take small items like briefcases and knapsacks with them rather than those damned big rolling suitcases that they stuff into the overheads. Also, (and perhaps more importantly) they will be grabbing them while still in their seats, rather than while blocking the aisles.
Marck, I don't think that locking the overheads while the engines are running is realistic, but I don't think your objection that people would just put their valuables in a bag under the seat would actually defeat the purpose.
All of us have gotten off a crowded plane before. Unless you're next to the door in use, you need to wait for the folks in the aisle to get out of the way before you can leave your row (at least in economy). How long does it really take to grab whatever you've stuffed under your seat? How much does, say, a purse or shoulder bag slow you down as you walk down the aisle? Is it really an obstruction in going down the slide? I expect that bringing this sort of bag causes almost no delay. If it hasn't already done so, the FAA should run some tests and find out.
As many here have recognized, instructing passengers (yes, as a paying customer, I actually do find the acronym "SLF" offensive, thanks for asking) to leave their bags behind doesn't work. It's sort of like the war on drugs that way. Screaming about how much you hate the people who do it won't work either. So, perhaps it would be a better ides to set a realistic goal (say, no wheelies or other large bags) and setting egress requirements for new aircraft that ensure a reasonable evacuation time even if not everyone getting off is a fit young person wearing nothing more than running shoes and a track suit.
Also, airline practices of making carry-on bags free and charging for every checked bag are just stupid, whether you look at them from the point of view of safety, comfort, quick aircraft turnaround or maximizing airline revenue. If anything, a bag over a certain minimal purse/briefcase size that fits under the seat, should cost more than the same bag in the hold to encourage passengers to do the thing that makes it easier, more comfortable and sometimes safer for the airline to get everyone to their destination. Creating financial incentives for passengers to make travel less convenient, efficient and safe is stupid and probably shouldn't even be legal.
As for me, in an evacuation, I'll probably leave my stuff behind (as a guy with my phone, money and wallet in my pockets, that's pretty easy), but if the risk seems low, the crew seems calm and everyone else is doing it, I don't know. I might bring the small bag under the seat with my laptop, etc. I would never bring a bag out of the overhead compartment though.
All of us have gotten off a crowded plane before. Unless you're next to the door in use, you need to wait for the folks in the aisle to get out of the way before you can leave your row (at least in economy). How long does it really take to grab whatever you've stuffed under your seat? How much does, say, a purse or shoulder bag slow you down as you walk down the aisle? Is it really an obstruction in going down the slide? I expect that bringing this sort of bag causes almost no delay. If it hasn't already done so, the FAA should run some tests and find out.
As many here have recognized, instructing passengers (yes, as a paying customer, I actually do find the acronym "SLF" offensive, thanks for asking) to leave their bags behind doesn't work. It's sort of like the war on drugs that way. Screaming about how much you hate the people who do it won't work either. So, perhaps it would be a better ides to set a realistic goal (say, no wheelies or other large bags) and setting egress requirements for new aircraft that ensure a reasonable evacuation time even if not everyone getting off is a fit young person wearing nothing more than running shoes and a track suit.
Also, airline practices of making carry-on bags free and charging for every checked bag are just stupid, whether you look at them from the point of view of safety, comfort, quick aircraft turnaround or maximizing airline revenue. If anything, a bag over a certain minimal purse/briefcase size that fits under the seat, should cost more than the same bag in the hold to encourage passengers to do the thing that makes it easier, more comfortable and sometimes safer for the airline to get everyone to their destination. Creating financial incentives for passengers to make travel less convenient, efficient and safe is stupid and probably shouldn't even be legal.
As for me, in an evacuation, I'll probably leave my stuff behind (as a guy with my phone, money and wallet in my pockets, that's pretty easy), but if the risk seems low, the crew seems calm and everyone else is doing it, I don't know. I might bring the small bag under the seat with my laptop, etc. I would never bring a bag out of the overhead compartment though.
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All well and good until that passenger who's above the rules, who doesn't have all his stuff put away before the seat belt sign comes on. "Please sir - you have to put all that cr*p away before we . . . oh you can't!"
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Central locking on the overhead bins? Sorry, but on which planet do you live?
Apart from trying to put their stuff elsewhere etc. etc., some pax will inevitably fail to notice (or will have forgotten) that the bins are locked and will try again and again to open them, thus further delaying the evac. As e1229 aptly put it:
i.e. design evac such that it is taking account of human behaviour. Ultimately, this means wider aisles, less seats....
On a different planet, too. I know.
Apart from trying to put their stuff elsewhere etc. etc., some pax will inevitably fail to notice (or will have forgotten) that the bins are locked and will try again and again to open them, thus further delaying the evac. As e1229 aptly put it:
Try to understand why PAX do that, and act properly
On a different planet, too. I know.
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Given the conditions, I can certainly understand why passengers would want to get their coats from the overhead lockers before leaving the aircraft. There would inevitably be a delay before pax were got into rescue vehicles and ferried to an indoors location. It would a challenge to any old or infirm person even with warm clothes in a subzero snowstorm. A basic calculation of chances of dying from fireball / smoke, vs dying from hypothermia...not actually that simple.
And while you're getting your parka, you might as well get your handbag / laptop / passport / phone. Frankly, I would.
And while you're getting your parka, you might as well get your handbag / laptop / passport / phone. Frankly, I would.
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locking overhead lockers is an absolute joke! seriously. the fact that, medical kit, spare life vests, doctors box, loudhailer, oxygen cylinders etc etc are all stored in them.
its called emergency equipment folks.........
Nothing more to say.
its called emergency equipment folks.........
Nothing more to say.