No wheels on my wagon !!
SkyGod
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. However; to the point. How did 4 tyres burst?
No tire-temp or tire pressure indicators in the cockpit of AA's 767-300.
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The 767 200 & 300 I have flown do not have tyre pressure monitors, some models did have brake temperature indications, some didn't. Some 757/767's had steering tillers on the left and right, some didn't, but our company sop was for captain to steer on the ground.
AA planes traditionally only had one tiller on the left side, for example, I believe they did an STC to remove the right tiller when they got A300's years ago. Other legacy carriers like Pan Am kept tillers on both sides in many planes and let the copilot taxi.
Nowadays the procedural picture is somewhat muddied with mergers, AA, DL and UA seem to take a mix of old techniques and call outs from the predecessor airlines.
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Looking at cockpit pictures posted online of AA B-767-323's it appears that they indeed have brake temp indications on the lower right corner of the status page on the lower EICAS display.
People are talking about "molten rubber" and dangerously high brake temps. Why would this be because of some burst tire? I can understand the risk of collateral damage but really high temps are not always a problem.
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The 767 200 & 300 I have flown do not have tyre pressure monitors, some models did have brake temperature indications, some didn't. Some 757/767's had steering tillers on the left and right, some didn't, but our company sop was for captain to steer on the ground. Throw single engine taxiing into the mix and the combination of this with runway and taxi slope and turn requirements makes for a variety of different thrust settings at different airports, slope, turn requirements etc.
I have never experienced a tyre blow or fuse plug go, but with all the above variable factors there is no sure way to know there is a problem unless someone tells you, or reports it to the ground or tower frequency to relay it to you.
I have beein situations where a large thrust input is required to manoeuvre on single engine.
Doesn't seem to be taxying overly fast IMHO, just keeping the momentum for the turn which one may chose to do if taxying on single engine on a heavier plane like the 767.
I have never experienced a tyre blow or fuse plug go, but with all the above variable factors there is no sure way to know there is a problem unless someone tells you, or reports it to the ground or tower frequency to relay it to you.
I have beein situations where a large thrust input is required to manoeuvre on single engine.
Doesn't seem to be taxying overly fast IMHO, just keeping the momentum for the turn which one may chose to do if taxying on single engine on a heavier plane like the 767.
Can it happen on other types? Granted that even if the crew on that flight had audible warnings of the blowout along with detailed super slow motion of the event with associated certainty on what systems had been compromised they could have done nothing. I'm happy that in some circumstances having that data wouldn't change the outcome, but shouldn't the data be available in the event of a blowout on landing? Shouldn't a pilot know the disposition of every aspect of the critical systems of his or her aircraft?
Please don't jump all over me for my lack of experience in the front end. It may be that monitoring the status of the tyres is considered to be too great an additional load on the pilots. It may also be that the risk assessment is that the additional effort would put the monitoring of other systems under such pressure as to lead to greater danger.
I'm not being panicky here; in my own profession I sometimes have to take measured and pragmatic risks.
I'm just surprised that this risk to hydraulics and other systems can seemingly escape the attention of the flight crew.
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Is there any reason to believe the brake temps would be unusually high?
Also, with the tires gone and damage to sensor wiring, you might get brake temps suddenly indicating zero. I've seen this on one wheel from a loose electrical plug.
Brake temps on the 767 are indicated on a 'relative' scale of 0 to 9, you get a BRAKE TEMP light and EICAS for values 5 or above.
Is ULMFlyer's video a single engine taxy?
SkyGod
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Looking at cockpit pictures posted online of AA B-767-323's it appears that they indeed have brake temp indications on the lower right corner of the status page on the lower EICAS display.
Care to post a link so I notify the Training Department to include the brake temp indicators in future recurrent training?
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but shouldn't the data be available in the event of a blowout on landing? Shouldn't a pilot know the disposition of every aspect of the critical systems of his or her aircraft?
Tyre pressure indications are generally an option. There are intial costs and ongoing maintenance costs (parts, labour) with this option, but these would be offset to some degree by timesaving and reducing the damage in incidents like this. It's a lot quicker to look at pressure values on a cockpit screen than running to a toolcrib, requisitioning a tyre pressure gauge, running back to the aircraft, and, for example on a Boeing 747, unscrewing 18 valve caps and manually checking pressures with a mechanical gauge. Getting a reading involves pushing really hard on the valve stem (sometimes repeatedly). Then putting the valve caps back on. This may have to be done in all kinds of weather extremes. Not so popular with Engineering.
Unfortunately, tyres usually shred at higher speed, often when there is nothing you can do anyway (knowing the pressures are low isn't going to prevent damage). The warning system for such is actually inhibited during takeoff. However, if you get low tyre pressure indications after takeoff, at least you can notify the tower prior to your arrival at the next station. Note that there are separate warnings for wheel well fires and hydraulic system malfunctions should the tyre problem generate other problems.
Of course, you could ask why aren't tyre pressure indications mandatory on automobiles. Some exceed the speeds of aircraft (on the ground). No less a risk
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Never seen that and I have flown them things for 10 years.
I was rummaging around cockpit pictures online trying to figure that out.Here's a picture of a B-767, not AA, with brake temps:
http://www.austrianaviation.net/uplo...ockpit.jpg.jpg
Something to keep in mind - with the recent mergers, American (as well as Delta and United) has a hodgepodge fleet of 767s. In the case of American, they have 767s that were originally purchased by TWA and USAir, as well those originally purchased by American.
Airbubba,
Give it a rest, especially your Monday morning Quarterbacking of the crew. You don't know squat about GIG, the slope of the it's runways or the equipment options on AA 767's. As Towerdog mentioned, AA doesn't have brake temp gauges, but don't that stop you from your little report. FYI, the previous AA Captain with the Brazil "problem" got screwed by one of their fine immigration people.
Same goes for most of the other posters here. Are you guys even pilots? Love the "the flight crew should never be allowed to fly again". Nice. Let me know when you figure the N1 settings used by the crew to taxi. Looks to me like little resistance on the rims if the rubber left all at once.
I'll wait for the final report before damming the crew.
AA's 767's are not a "hodgepodge". The TWA Pratt engine -300's were sold. The -200's are gone except for the USAir side which are a separate operation with no mixing. The only difference may be the flat panel retrofit on the -300's which may have been completed for all jets at this time. They are standardized.
Give it a rest, especially your Monday morning Quarterbacking of the crew. You don't know squat about GIG, the slope of the it's runways or the equipment options on AA 767's. As Towerdog mentioned, AA doesn't have brake temp gauges, but don't that stop you from your little report. FYI, the previous AA Captain with the Brazil "problem" got screwed by one of their fine immigration people.
Same goes for most of the other posters here. Are you guys even pilots? Love the "the flight crew should never be allowed to fly again". Nice. Let me know when you figure the N1 settings used by the crew to taxi. Looks to me like little resistance on the rims if the rubber left all at once.
I'll wait for the final report before damming the crew.
AA's 767's are not a "hodgepodge". The TWA Pratt engine -300's were sold. The -200's are gone except for the USAir side which are a separate operation with no mixing. The only difference may be the flat panel retrofit on the -300's which may have been completed for all jets at this time. They are standardized.
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Give it a rest, especially your Monday morning Quarterbacking of the crew. You don't know squat about GIG, the slope of the it's runways or the equipment options on AA 767's.
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Of course, you could ask why aren't tyre pressure indications mandatory on automobiles. Some exceed the speeds of aircraft (on the ground). No less a risk
Regarding risk, I have never had more than four people in my car.
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Originally Posted by WhatsaLizad?
FYI, the previous AA Captain with the Brazil "problem" got screwed by one of their fine immigration people.
airbubba
Quote:
Max brake temp occurs 10-15 minutes after the brake application according to Boeing's guidance.
Quote:
Quote:
Max brake temp occurs 10-15 minutes after the brake application according to Boeing's guidance.
Quote:
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I suppose it depends where the sensor is. The sensor cannot be between the rotors and stators due to it also wearing out. Therefore, it will be positioned relatively near the outer surface of the brake-pack. The heat would then have to conduct out of the brake-pack causing highest reading sometime after the brakes were applied.
"From the news story it sounded like he deserved it "
White Knight,
Sure, news stories are always High Def accurate replays of actual events.
My observations are from experience with this same flying and crews. AA has been operating in Brazil for about 25 years with a large number of flights. With 9,000+ pilots and 20,000+ cabin crew, there is bound to be some goofy actions with a very small number at any airline let alone one the size of AA. I don't excuse it when these things happen. With the alleged "finger" incident, I don't think it happened as claimed by the Brazilians.
Their immigration an customs people can be like the US, which isn't a compliment. Generally, the majority are great but a few generally like to screw with people.
The finger Captain stood in line like always, and when it came his turn to present the document card, he quickly fished it out of his uniform jacket and presented it to the officer. His hand was outstretched, palm up, with his hand holding the card vertically for the officer to take. Instead of two fingers grasping the card on the outside part facing the officer, only the middle finger was visible. That's all it was. There is a pic somewhere to confirm it. The description I personally heard from the Captain involved was that like most of AA's flights, he flew all night, with the typical lack of sleep, fumbled with the card as he withdrew it from his jacket and the next thing he knew the Brazilians were going nuts. It surely wasn't what the BBC story says.
I personally think there are few guys that may have wanted to do the "gesture" , but this guy would be the last on the list to try it.
"White Knight,
Sure, news stories are always High Def accurate replays of actual events.
My observations are from experience with this same flying and crews. AA has been operating in Brazil for about 25 years with a large number of flights. With 9,000+ pilots and 20,000+ cabin crew, there is bound to be some goofy actions with a very small number at any airline let alone one the size of AA. I don't excuse it when these things happen. With the alleged "finger" incident, I don't think it happened as claimed by the Brazilians.
Their immigration an customs people can be like the US, which isn't a compliment. Generally, the majority are great but a few generally like to screw with people.
The finger Captain stood in line like always, and when it came his turn to present the document card, he quickly fished it out of his uniform jacket and presented it to the officer. His hand was outstretched, palm up, with his hand holding the card vertically for the officer to take. Instead of two fingers grasping the card on the outside part facing the officer, only the middle finger was visible. That's all it was. There is a pic somewhere to confirm it. The description I personally heard from the Captain involved was that like most of AA's flights, he flew all night, with the typical lack of sleep, fumbled with the card as he withdrew it from his jacket and the next thing he knew the Brazilians were going nuts. It surely wasn't what the BBC story says.
I personally think there are few guys that may have wanted to do the "gesture" , but this guy would be the last on the list to try it.
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Can someone explain that to me? I understand that brakes stay hot for quite a while, especially after a high energy event like a rejected takoff, but they get hottest 10-15 minutes after application? I'm not trolling, just an honest physics question.
Brake Energy Consideration In Flight Operation
The 10-15 minutes is also cited in the quick turn charts on the Boeings I've flown.
I guess as FGK said, it takes that much time for the heat generated in braking to make it to the sensor. Decades ago Bob Hoover used to do an F-86 demo including a short field landing. He'd hop out of the plane and put his hand on the brakes to show that they were not hot. He later admitted that this was showmanship, a few minutes later the brakes would be way too hot to touch as the heat made it to the outside of the wheels.
As I've been advised here, brake temp indications are indeed optional on the B-763 (and B-762), they are required on the B-764 from what I read on the Boeing site. However, somewhere there is probably an exception to this rule as well.
FYI, the previous AA Captain with the Brazil "problem" got screwed by one of their fine immigration people.
On the 767 you have normal, alternate, reserve and accumulator braking. Looking the videos that boy taxiing on the rims was down to Flintstone braking, you put your foot out and drag it to slow down.
"On the 767 you have normal, alternate, reserve and accumulator braking. Looking the videos that boy taxiing on the rims was down to Flintstone braking, you put your foot out and drag it to slow down. "
Don't show the airline accounts the video. I'd bet a few emails will be sent out asking if those high cost tires are really necessary or why can't they be deferred for 30 days
"Don't show the airline accounts the video. I'd bet a few emails will be sent out asking if those high cost tires are really necessary or why can't they be deferred for 30 days