Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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A plea to potential journalists who seek yummy stories out there.
ELT's do not always work. That's a fact. They are NOT 100% reliable, not even on land. Many fatal accidents have happened without ELT even whispering about it. On land.
In water and especially in the ocean they do not work at all (ELT is radiowaves = EMwaves) unless someone survived a ditching and managed to activate an ELT in a life raft.
Absence of ELT activity means diddly squat. You can draw zero conclusions on this. So PLEASE stop reporting about magical scenarios. Do some research. And please for once, ask some insightful follow up questions next time.
And for all of you prunes who want real time streaming of FDR data, please look up what "data congestion" means in networking terms before even attempt to bore me again, please.
(Yes, I come across as somewhat annoyed in this post. That's because I am. I like to think that I know enough to know I know nothing, but I do know when I see someone who thinks he knows everything but really hasn't got a clue.)
ELT's do not always work. That's a fact. They are NOT 100% reliable, not even on land. Many fatal accidents have happened without ELT even whispering about it. On land.
In water and especially in the ocean they do not work at all (ELT is radiowaves = EMwaves) unless someone survived a ditching and managed to activate an ELT in a life raft.
Absence of ELT activity means diddly squat. You can draw zero conclusions on this. So PLEASE stop reporting about magical scenarios. Do some research. And please for once, ask some insightful follow up questions next time.
And for all of you prunes who want real time streaming of FDR data, please look up what "data congestion" means in networking terms before even attempt to bore me again, please.
(Yes, I come across as somewhat annoyed in this post. That's because I am. I like to think that I know enough to know I know nothing, but I do know when I see someone who thinks he knows everything but really hasn't got a clue.)
...and more wreckage
https://www.facebook.com/ngenghen.de...e=1&permPage=1
...picked up by Singapore Navy...
Thanks for the link.
Pretty suggestive of forceful breakup when composite panels are sheared this way.
https://www.facebook.com/ngenghen.de...e=1&permPage=1
...picked up by Singapore Navy...
Thanks for the link.
Pretty suggestive of forceful breakup when composite panels are sheared this way.
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assuming a sharp pilot (but a sharp pilot should never have stalled in the first place, so we can't assume he suddenly becomes razor sharp during the stall recovery
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Pretty suggestive of forceful breakup when composite panels are sheared this way.
The lower part of the interior wall seems pretty intact, a little crushed from the above maybe. What this tells us is not much though, unless seen in context with other parts of the adjacent structures.
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Presumably it's possible for the Indonesian authorities to make a good guess as to who was flying the plane at the time, as I imagine whoever asked for FL380 wasn't the PF, and the accent should be fairly easy to identify (Indonesian vs French)?
Also - and echoing an earlier post - no information has come out about the cause of death identified in the bodies brought back to shore. Distressing as it is to the families, the condition of the bodies may be an important clue as to what happened to the plane.
Also - and echoing an earlier post - no information has come out about the cause of death identified in the bodies brought back to shore. Distressing as it is to the families, the condition of the bodies may be an important clue as to what happened to the plane.
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Yes, khorton's post was excellent.
However, recovery from a stall requires:
1. reduce AoA, and
2. regain airspeed
Training emphasis has recently shifted towards the first, and I miss that in his post.
However, recovery from a stall requires:
1. reduce AoA, and
2. regain airspeed
Training emphasis has recently shifted towards the first, and I miss that in his post.
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Navy vessel detects an object suspected to be tail
Strait Times reports:PANGKALAN BUN/JAKARTA - An Indonesian Navy vessel detected an object suspected to be the tail of AirAsia flight QZ8501 on Friday, Metro TV reported.
"At 7.34am, we detected a piece of wreckage suspected to be a plane's tail," said KRI Bung Tomo commander, Colonel Yayan, in a phone interview with Metro TV on Friday.
The ship's sonar detected the object located 29 metres deep in the Karimata Strait.
According to the report, visual checks are needed to confirm if the object is indeed a plane's tail.
"At 7.34am, we detected a piece of wreckage suspected to be a plane's tail," said KRI Bung Tomo commander, Colonel Yayan, in a phone interview with Metro TV on Friday.
The ship's sonar detected the object located 29 metres deep in the Karimata Strait.
According to the report, visual checks are needed to confirm if the object is indeed a plane's tail.
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24,000 fpm = approx 250 knots. How could that be anywhere near terminal velocity?
As I've been trying to make clear... terminal velocity has little meaning when there are massive vertical up or downraughts about...
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jientho --
Up/downdrafts of similar speeds would be extreme but not beyond the realms of possibility. We've measured updrafts of around 195kts and were only prevented from measuring higher values by equipment limitations. Those were over the Atlantic but I suspect the region where this aircraft went down would see similar.
Do the math. Downdraft of 250+ mph?? I mean I'm the one speculating about unprecedented tropical weather phenomena, but that is beyond even my ability to conjecture.
Props are for boats!
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Just watching BBC. Now 30 bodies recovered. Mainly being recovered by the USNAVY ship that's in attendance for this search. Pinger searching by the Singaporean and Indonesians for the wreckage/FDR CVR, ineffective due weather.
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@Nemrytter -- Thanks! It seems that even my imagination regarding tropical extremes, which was so far "out there" that a comment got mod-deleted (in fairness maybe because I referenced global warming 
), nonetheless was apparently "on the bubble". What would be the limit of conceivability given current knowledge, up/downdraft of 300kts? 400?
), nonetheless was apparently "on the bubble". What would be the limit of conceivability given current knowledge, up/downdraft of 300kts? 400?
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Journos
"Some of the conjecture by so-called media "experts" is just stunning in its nonsense. It is hard to believe that these statements are being printed and given credence"
Journos don't make stuff up. You are quoting a Walkley award winning Australian journalist of high standing. They look for people of credibility and standing and report what they say. Its been mentioned elsewhere that Professional Pilots hold back their views until the evidence is in - so who is going to be quoted in the early days of a tragedy when the public is interested to know a reason presented at a level they can understand?
Newspapers in Australia target a mass audience not an audience of professional pilots with ultimate and superior expertise and experience - although I have seen a few wacky ideas on this forum too.
Journos don't make stuff up. You are quoting a Walkley award winning Australian journalist of high standing. They look for people of credibility and standing and report what they say. Its been mentioned elsewhere that Professional Pilots hold back their views until the evidence is in - so who is going to be quoted in the early days of a tragedy when the public is interested to know a reason presented at a level they can understand?
Newspapers in Australia target a mass audience not an audience of professional pilots with ultimate and superior expertise and experience - although I have seen a few wacky ideas on this forum too.
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Cause of Death
"Hope that they did not miss to examanine "cause of death"
The news report only says that victims are being identified"
In this country a cause of death will not be stated on a death certificate unless an autopsy is done. Muslims prefer their departed to be buried quickly. Hint for foreigners who don't understand: They died from a plane crash.
The news report only says that victims are being identified"
In this country a cause of death will not be stated on a death certificate unless an autopsy is done. Muslims prefer their departed to be buried quickly. Hint for foreigners who don't understand: They died from a plane crash.
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Circulating on Twitter that AirAsia have had their route permit for Surubaya to Singapore revoked.
DIPURNAMA's Pix | TwitrPix
Gerry Soejatman @GerryS 37m37 minutes ago
Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501
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TunasKelapa @ArvinTunas 23m23 minutes ago
@GerryS On what ground?
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Gerry Soejatman @GerryS 21m21 minutes ago
@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights. #QZ8501 is turning into a mess
Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501
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TunasKelapa @ArvinTunas 23m23 minutes ago
@GerryS On what ground?
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Gerry Soejatman @GerryS 21m21 minutes ago
@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights. #QZ8501 is turning into a mess
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We've measured updrafts of around 195kts and were only prevented from measuring higher values by equipment limitations. Those were over the Atlantic
It seems that even my imagination regarding tropical extremes, which was so far "out there" that a comment got mod-deleted
Sweden being far, very far, from the worst action windwise, I have no doubts that wind speeds up/down/however in the tropics would far exceed this humble record.
The current non-tornadic wind speed record has been set in Australia. The new record is 408 km/h from 1996, about 220 knots. This measurement was taken in regular wind conditions, not in any up/downdraft but as you see, hard winds are not unheard of in that region.
If wind conditions are of any interest to this investigation, we have to see. I'm just giving out a few numbers for those interested in what Mother Nature may throw at you in different places on this earth.
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In this country a cause of death will not be stated on a death certificate unless an autopsy is done. Muslims prefer their departed to be buried quickly. Hint for foreigners who don't understand: They died from a plane crash.
These are unpleasant thoughts, but I'm surprised the bodies have been returned to relatives so promptly. Not all the passengers were Muslim.
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Is it possible the pilots were not properly informed about the weather en-route?
Air Asia QZ8501, Surat BMKG Ini Picu Jonan Marah * | -nasional- | Tempo.co
Google translation:
Air Asia QZ8501, Surat BMKG Ini Picu Jonan Marah * | -nasional- | Tempo.co
Google translation:
TEMPO.CO , Jakarta -Minister of Transportation Ignatius Jonan moved quickly after finding irregularities in procedure QZ8501 departure of Air Asia , which fell in the waters Karimata . He had rebuked a director of PT Indonesia Air Asia during a surprise visit to the office of a number of airline operations at Soekarno - Hatta Airport , Cengkareng , Tangerang , Banten , January 2, 2015 .
Jonan Minister questioned the attitude of Air Asia who do not hold a direct briefing for pilots happenings aviation weather information . The pilot was only receive the information document downloads , and do not take physical weather data documents . The reason the AirAsia , bring documents that old school weather .
Jonas has previously received a letter from the Head of the Meteorology , Climatology and Geophysics ( BMKG ) Andi Eka Sakya dated December 31, 2014. This letter informed him that Air Asia QZ8501 late taking weather data . " From the log book at Juanda BMKG Station , Surabaya , it was found that the new take Air Asia weather information material at 07.00 pm after the impact of lost contact QZ8501 and not before take off . " ( Read : Evidence - AirAsia - QZ8501 - Lax - It - Make -Johan - Upset )
Letter from BMKG is addressed to the Minister of Transport Ignatius Jonan , limited follow-up meeting on 29 December, on the incidence of Air Asia . This meeting was chaired by the President of Joko Widodo and attended among others by the Minister of Transportation Ignatius Jonan ; Minister of Research , Technology , and Higher Education Muhammad Nasir ; Head of the National Search and Rescue Agency Marshal F.H.B. Soelistyo ; TNI Commander General Moeldoko ; as well as National Police Chief Gen. Sutarman .
Head of Data and Information BMKG Juanda , Bambang Setiajid , confirmed information that Air Asia QZ8501 not ask weather briefing . Though BMKG data showed growth cumulonimbus cloud remarkable since 02.00 .
Jonan Minister questioned the attitude of Air Asia who do not hold a direct briefing for pilots happenings aviation weather information . The pilot was only receive the information document downloads , and do not take physical weather data documents . The reason the AirAsia , bring documents that old school weather .
Jonas has previously received a letter from the Head of the Meteorology , Climatology and Geophysics ( BMKG ) Andi Eka Sakya dated December 31, 2014. This letter informed him that Air Asia QZ8501 late taking weather data . " From the log book at Juanda BMKG Station , Surabaya , it was found that the new take Air Asia weather information material at 07.00 pm after the impact of lost contact QZ8501 and not before take off . " ( Read : Evidence - AirAsia - QZ8501 - Lax - It - Make -Johan - Upset )
Letter from BMKG is addressed to the Minister of Transport Ignatius Jonan , limited follow-up meeting on 29 December, on the incidence of Air Asia . This meeting was chaired by the President of Joko Widodo and attended among others by the Minister of Transportation Ignatius Jonan ; Minister of Research , Technology , and Higher Education Muhammad Nasir ; Head of the National Search and Rescue Agency Marshal F.H.B. Soelistyo ; TNI Commander General Moeldoko ; as well as National Police Chief Gen. Sutarman .
Head of Data and Information BMKG Juanda , Bambang Setiajid , confirmed information that Air Asia QZ8501 not ask weather briefing . Though BMKG data showed growth cumulonimbus cloud remarkable since 02.00 .
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Cause of death
"It might be useful ..."
Maybe useful to you and a sense of curiosity shared by tabloids- but not to families who want to bury their dead, preferably in tact.
similar happened here after the bombing which killed 202 - westerners wanted to do more forensics locals wanted to clean up and bury their dead and spiritually cleanse the area.
Maybe useful to you and a sense of curiosity shared by tabloids- but not to families who want to bury their dead, preferably in tact.
similar happened here after the bombing which killed 202 - westerners wanted to do more forensics locals wanted to clean up and bury their dead and spiritually cleanse the area.