Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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Fuel
Dear All,
It would be interesting to study the fuel policy of the airline involved. For most companies, the fuel cost is one of the highest expenditure and one which is controlled and monitored strictly.
Depending on how much of extra fuel he had onboard to complete the flight , it would have influenced the captain decision on how far to deviate laterally and the decision to climb. A cruise speed so low ( well below the severe turbulence speed), a request to climb and a lesser deviation may have been fuel saving measures.
Their final destination, Singapore, has unpredictable weather/traffic which results in ATC delays , holding , go arounds etc. This would have been on the mind of the captain.
Over the years I've seen the fuel figure required for the same destination reduce. ( ie less extra fuel). Weather forecasts which are not accurate can catch any pilot unaware leaving a lesser number of options to choose from. Using experience most of us pilots know when to uplift extra fuel. But how many times have we been caught off guard and wished we had uplifted that extra 500kg/1000kg or even 100kg
As a senior captain once mentioned, "fuel in the tank is like money in the bank"
It would be interesting to study the fuel policy of the airline involved. For most companies, the fuel cost is one of the highest expenditure and one which is controlled and monitored strictly.
Depending on how much of extra fuel he had onboard to complete the flight , it would have influenced the captain decision on how far to deviate laterally and the decision to climb. A cruise speed so low ( well below the severe turbulence speed), a request to climb and a lesser deviation may have been fuel saving measures.
Their final destination, Singapore, has unpredictable weather/traffic which results in ATC delays , holding , go arounds etc. This would have been on the mind of the captain.
Over the years I've seen the fuel figure required for the same destination reduce. ( ie less extra fuel). Weather forecasts which are not accurate can catch any pilot unaware leaving a lesser number of options to choose from. Using experience most of us pilots know when to uplift extra fuel. But how many times have we been caught off guard and wished we had uplifted that extra 500kg/1000kg or even 100kg
As a senior captain once mentioned, "fuel in the tank is like money in the bank"
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Not it didn't. What was extreme about AF447 (and possibly Air Asia) being flown in conditions which it had been certified to fly in, that is icing Conditions? In that case, the fact is the crew and aircraft were entited to be there.
There was a 737 years ago with CFM 56s that ingested a bunch of water and hail in a heavy storm over the gulf. They burned out both engines and miraculously landed on a levee in New Orleans with no power. Cerification didn't test for that much hail and water.
Our own fleet of CFM 56s with a unique but certified set of Fan blades has it's own set of problems related to moisture that sure wasn't tested for during certification. We have some mitigations in place to deal with it but quite honestly the phenomenon is still being studied to be understood. They still don't have a solution.
The effects of supercooled droplets was only really understood less than 5 yrs ago.
And how many would ever have thought pushing the nose down would trigger the stall warning?
etc.
Never let your guard down. There are always new things coming up that were not part of the certification process.
Thread Starter
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As mention above, there are new reports that the body of the aircraft is lying on its back in 30 meters of water.
Bodi Air Asia Terbalik Tampak di Kedalaman 30 Meter | -nasional- | Tempo.co
(Use Google translator if you're not fluent in Bahasa).
Although I'm not suggesting for one minute that the aircraft rolled on its back and stayed that way until impact with the water, but just how easy is it to correct a roll in the A320, when it has flipped on its back?
I understand in normal law, there is a 67 degree limit on bank angle, after which it will correct itself. But will the computers revert automatically to direct law if an extreme unusual attitude has been encountered? (Not wanting to start a debate about Airbus automation, but just genuinely curious).
And it's been reported that one of the bodies retrieved was wearing a life vest.
Bodi Air Asia Terbalik Tampak di Kedalaman 30 Meter | -nasional- | Tempo.co
(Use Google translator if you're not fluent in Bahasa).
Although I'm not suggesting for one minute that the aircraft rolled on its back and stayed that way until impact with the water, but just how easy is it to correct a roll in the A320, when it has flipped on its back?
I understand in normal law, there is a 67 degree limit on bank angle, after which it will correct itself. But will the computers revert automatically to direct law if an extreme unusual attitude has been encountered? (Not wanting to start a debate about Airbus automation, but just genuinely curious).
And it's been reported that one of the bodies retrieved was wearing a life vest.
Last edited by training wheels; 31st Dec 2014 at 05:07. Reason: Added last sentence
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Is anyone able to provide insight on changes in altitude in order to assess weather.
There's been a lot said about whether the a/c climbed, deviated (left), both, or neither. And it seems generally accepted that you don't try outclimb a thunderstorm.
I vaguely recall hearing about climbing to let AWAR get a better angle, and thus a better reading, may be a good tactic to help decide if/how to weave through the Swiss cheese.
Anyone here able to elaborate whether this is legitimate strategy, foolhardy, or something in between?
Thanks
There's been a lot said about whether the a/c climbed, deviated (left), both, or neither. And it seems generally accepted that you don't try outclimb a thunderstorm.
I vaguely recall hearing about climbing to let AWAR get a better angle, and thus a better reading, may be a good tactic to help decide if/how to weave through the Swiss cheese.
Anyone here able to elaborate whether this is legitimate strategy, foolhardy, or something in between?
Thanks
Last edited by A360Pilot; 31st Dec 2014 at 05:18. Reason: grammar change
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replicate what is already completely adequate tracking capability
To IanW
Thanks for the update. I stand corrected.
Guess what - mandates are already in place for use of ADS-C, ADS-B and SSR.
Indeed expect these mandates to require retrofit to all the older airframes within the next 5 years.
Tracking exists, it works, aircraft can be tracked with an accuracy of a runway width if necessary anywhere in the world.
So please stop trying to propose more expensive** hardware be fitted aircraft to replicate what is already completely adequate tracking capability.
Indeed expect these mandates to require retrofit to all the older airframes within the next 5 years.
Tracking exists, it works, aircraft can be tracked with an accuracy of a runway width if necessary anywhere in the world.
So please stop trying to propose more expensive** hardware be fitted aircraft to replicate what is already completely adequate tracking capability.
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@Trainingwheels
The location given at the link you provided, (3°54'48.00"S 110°31'4.00"E) is about 110km from the last reported position, (3°22'1.58"S 109°41'28"E)
That's about 100km away from where I expect to see the wreckage.
The debris has shown up about 10km E of the LRP, which means we should expect the wreckage to be very close to the LRP.
When you read the text do you see any explanation?
The location given at the link you provided, (3°54'48.00"S 110°31'4.00"E) is about 110km from the last reported position, (3°22'1.58"S 109°41'28"E)
That's about 100km away from where I expect to see the wreckage.
The debris has shown up about 10km E of the LRP, which means we should expect the wreckage to be very close to the LRP.
When you read the text do you see any explanation?
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O2 cylinder
I have a question regarding the items found. Im not very familiar with the A320.
First the O2 cylinder. Was that A320 fitted with gaseous cabin drop out O2 system? If so where are these fitted? Are they in the cargo lining?
First the O2 cylinder. Was that A320 fitted with gaseous cabin drop out O2 system? If so where are these fitted? Are they in the cargo lining?
Thats a scuba tank. Luggage or refuse from boat.
Last edited by starliner; 31st Dec 2014 at 06:02. Reason: add quote
Sky Dancer:
Thanks. Now we'll have to see how this unfortunate incident shakes out.
Bngr you are right , the Thales probed had problems with the drainage of water resulting in a blocked pitot , many carriers had switched to Goodrich which resulted in better performance.Once again not very sure of this , needs to be ratified.
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Sky Dancer
...the Thales probes had problems with the drainage of water resulting in a blocked pitot , many carriers had switched to Goodrich which resulted in better performance.
...the Thales probes had problems with the drainage of water resulting in a blocked pitot , many carriers had switched to Goodrich which resulted in better performance.
http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_p...f/PAD_14-139_1
This Air Asia A320 was only built 6 years ago so would be fitted with the appropriate pitot tubes... not saying icing of the pitot couldn't occur, but certainly less likely.
... the replacement pitot's were also Thales models however, not the Goodrich models used now on the A330/340.
In Asia even highly qualified professionals will revert to their superiors for permission
On the other hand [the PIC] was paired with a French co-pilot who I'm sure would have been both vocal and assertive if there were a recognized threat to safety
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Most common approach is to deviate and stay on the upwind of the weather sys, if possible. Sometimes due to widespread of weather pilots go through the least resistance path from visual cue n weather radar returns. Climbing is an option subjected to aircraft performance at the specific level n its stall margin to VLS or visually with aid of weather radar being able to out climb the weather at that level.
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FYI: The AD in the link you posted is recent (De. 2014) and is "Proposed" not mandatory.
"There was an airworthiness directive issued regarding this well before AF447... mandatory on A320's, optional on A330/340's (at the time, now mandatory)."
http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_p...4-139_1ROPOSED
"There was an airworthiness directive issued regarding this well before AF447... mandatory on A320's, optional on A330/340's (at the time, now mandatory)."
http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_p...4-139_1ROPOSED
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@Starliner
I doubt that's luggage. It's a pain to travel with scubba tanks as it's a dangerous good and special procedure needs to be followed. I belive it's part of ac. The only thing that I can think of is a possible gaseous oxygen cabin system. Those kind of big bottles are used for such purpose. Also for the FD O2 system. Thats always gaseous.
I doubt that's luggage. It's a pain to travel with scubba tanks as it's a dangerous good and special procedure needs to be followed. I belive it's part of ac. The only thing that I can think of is a possible gaseous oxygen cabin system. Those kind of big bottles are used for such purpose. Also for the FD O2 system. Thats always gaseous.