Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 31st Dec 2014, 08:30
  #701 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This photo is supposedly that of an evacuation slide that was retrieved from the debris found in the water. Whether it had actually deployed or not is unknown, unless some one can tell from the picture?



Source: https://twitter.com/Malaysia_Latest/...03613365420032
training wheels is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 08:35
  #702 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Propduffer
@Trainingwheels

The location given at the link you provided, (354'48.00"S 11031'4.00"E) is about 110km from the last reported position, (322'1.58"S 10941'28"E)

That's about 100km away from where I expect to see the wreckage.

The debris has shown up about 10km E of the LRP, which means we should expect the wreckage to be very close to the LRP.

When you read the text do you see any explanation?
There's no explanation from that article Propduffer, but most reports I've seen have the debris location well east of the last reported position.
training wheels is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 08:45
  #703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If that slide/raft gets inspected it's likely that it can be determined if it was disconnected by human intervention or not. You can't say from the photo. Im sure the authorities are looking at this aspect. It can provide important clues.
As I said, slide raft was attached to the floor brackets as the door is armed during the flight. When you open the door in the armed mode slideraft is gonna deploy automatically. But we don't know if the door was opened by human intervention or due to structural damage.

Cabin crew are trained for such situation but for that the aircraft needed to float for a little while so they can take the necessary actions to evacuate, board the slide/raft and disconnected.

I don't want to speculate at this early stage, we need more info to establish it was an attempt of an unplanned ditching.

Last edited by skytrax; 31st Dec 2014 at 08:56.
skytrax is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:00
  #704 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 75
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Early reports that one of the 7 bodies recovered so far was "wearing a lifejacket" have now been clarified as being incorrect.
The information has now been clarified to, "a lifejacket was found near a body".
onetrack is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:14
  #705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Asia
Age: 62
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Having been in managerial positions around the world, including US and several places in Asia, I can fully appreciate the point. In the US, and western culture in general, professionals are expected to do their job first with full authority and report later on the task accomplished. In Asia even highly qualified professionals will revert to their superiors for permission, even if those superiors are in no way qualified to judge on a particular action. It would be considered extremely impolite not to, I myself have played this game several times, both on the giving and receiving end.
Well I work in a managerial position in Asia with asians and I experience very little of that kind of behaviour. In my >30 years of experience I find it is the attitude of managers that most dictates the behaviours of subordinates. I really am sick of this nonsense, it rears its head in every thread involving an Asian airline and it smacks of cultural superiority. I've worked with Americans in American companies who spend every second trying to second guess their managers, pitifully fearful of spiteful reprisal at best and career assassination at worst.

It's ridiculously banal to construe that all people of any culture respond the same way. These stereotypes are useful to help adapt to cultural differences, can be valid inputs into incident investigation or improving CRM, but anyone who tries to apply them like a truism will quickly discover a different reality, even more so in this era of cultural homogenisation and international education.

The world is not as simple as trite populists like Malcolm Gladwell would have you believe.
bud leon is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:19
  #706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
bud leon
congratulations, you are spot on

And don't forget those here, who propagate that outside their homeland VHF, SSR, GPS, ADS-B is not known...ATC in general is defunct and airlines operations have the quality of a cab operator
threemiles is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:20
  #707 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 54
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The High Pressure Canister and Aspirator responsible for inflating the Slide. 20140317_Overwing_Slide_deployed...from another site

When a Slide is activated, an aspirator and canister charged with Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen must inflate the slide to full extension within 3.5 seconds. Any longer, and the unit fails the test and additional repairs need to take place. The inflation system contains the gases in a canister at 3000 PSI which is roughly 100 times the air pressure that you would find in your typical car tire. Interestingly enough, only 1/3rd of the inflation gases are used to inflate the Slide. The balance of the Slide is inflated with surrounding air through the Venturi Effect.



or



vs reported debris found...



Same type of fitting and hose feeds..

scuba looks like this, valve with no pressure gauge....


Last edited by Golf_Seirra; 31st Dec 2014 at 09:41.
Golf_Seirra is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:32
  #708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the confirmation.
So the bottle is the one stowed into the door bustle together with the folded slide/raft. Normally that bottle would stay behind after the raft is disconnected. If it was found still attached to the raft it pretty much means that the whole evacuation device was dislocated upon impact due to structural damage.
It's an assumption, I know, but it's an informed one based on what we see in the photo.
skytrax is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:40
  #709 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am trying to come up with why a 20000 hour skipper flew himself,his passengers and his crew into dangerous weather.And how the Airbus sidestick performed with the subsequent upset and if this AD was pertinent to the ensuing event,or if indeed no recovery was possible,regardless of pilot skill or type flown.

I think the "cultural" issue could possibly explain it best as I cant believe a high-timer wouldnt be familiar with the traps/pitfalls of wx radar operation/interpretation that might lead to inadvertent and sudden penetration of severe weather.This crew operated in ITCZ and Monsoon weather constantly,they must have been intimately conversant with its dangers.The only downside of such experience can be complacency.
Left/right deviation for weather can and must be taken regardless of an ATC clearance if safety is in any doubt.Vertical deviation no.That requires a clearance prior.
Perhaps the aircraft ahead(EK) on the same airway may have had an influence on his decision-making.Group mindset.
Rananim is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:48
  #710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the "cultural" issue could possibly explain it best
There is no cultural issue here. The Captain was a former F-5 & F-16 squad leader. He's not going to take s**t from ATC or anyone else if he thinks his life and the lives of his passengers are in any kind of danger.

I understand in normal law, there is a 67 degree limit on bank angle, after which it will correct itself. But will the computers revert automatically to direct law if an extreme unusual attitude has been encountered? (Not wanting to start a debate about Airbus automation, but just genuinely curious).
There is an "abnormal attitude" law specifically for this situation (to allow recovery). It is a blend of direct and alternate laws, so there is still some limited protections. This mode kicks in at "extreme" attitudes and speeds, e.g., nose down >= 30 degrees or bank angle >= 125 degrees.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:49
  #711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 54
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIq8Zjwzi2Y

to see how they should work.....

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the actuating cylinder would be part of the slide once detached from the air frame in life-raft mode. No use trying to make detachable hoses to leave the cylinder behind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft4gxZ0c4I8

Last edited by Golf_Seirra; 31st Dec 2014 at 10:09.
Golf_Seirra is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:50
  #712 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Skytrax,


The slide bottle is part of the slide so stays with the slide after deployment, unless its an over wing job ( you don't evacuate in these anyway). I am assuming the bottle shown in the picture is the one being referred to.


The crew oxy cylinder is located under the floor and fittings are about 1/2 inch dia. tops; so that isn't it. Passenger oxy in this part of the world is chemical generators, so no oxy cylinders


These look like heavy breather hoses used for slide inflation.


If there is a different pic you are referring to let me know.

Last edited by MrPeabody; 31st Dec 2014 at 09:52. Reason: Left out pax oxy
MrPeabody is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 09:52
  #713 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,991
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
They will also look at the pattern the crew were on with regards to fatigue. It was a very early start, was it a second sector from an all night pattern? Etc etc

Fatigue probably played a part and Airline rostering is relevant a well.

There are a lot of 2 sector 8 hour all night flights rostered now days with 2 crew that speaking from experience are very fatiguing but apparently legal according to regulations!!
ACMS is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:02
  #714 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It was a very early start, was it a second sector from an all night pattern?
I'm sure you'll find that this was the first flight of the day. The aircraft overnights in SUB and I know the captain was based in Sidoarjo, which is where Juanda International Airport is located in Surabaya.
training wheels is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:11
  #715 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Age: 68
Posts: 1,913
Received 293 Likes on 123 Posts
Surabuya is a base for Airasia, it was the first flight of the day.

Flight routing was SUB-SIN-SRG-SIN-SUB.

11hr duty.
PoppaJo is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:13
  #716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Under Class C
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
One thing that has been annoying me that I wanted to draw attention to is the posters saying if real time telemetry was used that SAR would have got to them straight away (or that the delay regardless of real time data was too long). Or even how could they not see it on the first day given it was so close to the last known position.

The weather of the first day of SAR from what I read was terrible with crap visibility. It would have likely been possible to fly directly overhead and not see anything. Additionally if as it looks most of the plane is on the bottom in one or several large pieces, it takes time for stuff to start breaking away and floating to the surface.

Real time telemetry may have had no measurable benefit at all on the first day.

From the second day (better weather) on, that is a different story.
gchriste is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:14
  #717 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 54
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Don't forget portable O2 types....

Golf_Seirra is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:22
  #718 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 890
Received 6 Likes on 2 Posts
How does bank angle limiting work in the bus at high altitude? On the 73, one has to manually select the bank limit in HDG SEL - I assume the bus is more sophisticated and does it automatically, or can one bank the aircraft into buffet at high altitude like you can in brand B?
Jwscud is online now  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:25
  #719 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Or-E-Gun, USA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
STOP, Please!!

Stop the crap and the conspiracy speculation, please. Stuff has been found, the water is shallow, parts and records will be found and a normal investigation will proceed. It may take a year or so, but why >>730 comments within three days? Not a single one has any real FACTS about tis loss, so why bother with the blather?
My only conclusion is that the larger region is perhaps not the safest region for flying. Why? Multiple possibilities ranging from inept management, sloppy maintenance and a lot of very junior pilots - often those 250-300 TT 'cadets' planted in the right seat with 251 air hours. Perhaps not the case here (I think both pilots had significant time on type), but if one encounters very junior pilots on big jets, it will likely be in that region. If you can avoid it, Don't Go!
No Fly Zone is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2014, 10:30
  #720 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
yeah but its a abueatiful part of the world and that's where future business opportunities are

TBH I doubtthe safety record in SE Asia is as bad now as in Europe or the States in the 50's and 60'sas long as you stay away from the bush airlines
Heathrow Harry is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.