Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
Stop being an apologist for a system that is fatally flawed, again, Dozy. The NW prang was 40 years ago (when jets were pretty new), and the Birgenair was almost 20 years ago. To use them in this day and age to justify independent invisible side-sticks is ridiculous.
The fact of the matter is, if you can see the control column in your guts and the stall warning is hooting, you'll stand a far better chance of working out what's going on and takeover, or force the controls to the recovery position, if they are interconnected and plainly visible. End of story.
Geez, the captain doesn't even need to say "My Controls", he just does it and the FO would let go pronto.
As roulishollandais intimated, that's two. How many more will it take?
The fact of the matter is, if you can see the control column in your guts and the stall warning is hooting, you'll stand a far better chance of working out what's going on and takeover, or force the controls to the recovery position, if they are interconnected and plainly visible. End of story.
Geez, the captain doesn't even need to say "My Controls", he just does it and the FO would let go pronto.
As roulishollandais intimated, that's two. How many more will it take?
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 2nd Dec 2015 at 02:41.
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Capn Bloggs you have a blinkered view of independent invisible side-sticks. The Birgen Air had
it did not allow them to
In aviation it does not matter if it happened 20 years ago.
In AF447 and this Air Asia crash both crews caused the upset into the STALL the aircraft didn't. Training in a simulator will not improve it, the regulators need to ensure that all basic training includes stall and unusual attitude training where your little "pink b*m" is at threat if you do not get it right.
The fact of the matter is, if you can see the control column in your guts and the stall warning is hooting,
you'll stand a far better chance of working out what's going on and takeover, or force the controls to the recovery position, if they are interconnected and plainly visible. End of story.
In AF447 and this Air Asia crash both crews caused the upset into the STALL the aircraft didn't. Training in a simulator will not improve it, the regulators need to ensure that all basic training includes stall and unusual attitude training where your little "pink b*m" is at threat if you do not get it right.
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Would either of these accidents happened in an equivalent Boeing? (Control columns vs. side sticks.)
Boeings do not have alternate law with all of the ramifications of a poorly announced change of flight law that adds to the surprise factor.
Maybe Alternate law needs some rethinking of its implementation.
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STKPF/STKPC
I'm looking at blue graph STKPF (Sidestick Pitch First Officer) at page 51 and I wonder again... How is it possible for a fully qualified FO to pull-up like that, for long 3 minutes?
Also, it's interesting to notice, the correlation of these two graphs, red/blue. The blue one becomes constant (a line) about the same time as the sidestick of captain becomes active (red graph), as FO handed over the control, then he used his stick as a nice handle. Captain, consciously handled the stick, then there is no logic to order endlessly "Pull down". However, on page 60, 23:19:08 at last, he said "Pull Up".
Rather, the captain would order to FO to help him with trim wheel: "Roll down", but is difficult to imagine the THS position, as this graph has been omitted.
Also, it's interesting to notice, the correlation of these two graphs, red/blue. The blue one becomes constant (a line) about the same time as the sidestick of captain becomes active (red graph), as FO handed over the control, then he used his stick as a nice handle. Captain, consciously handled the stick, then there is no logic to order endlessly "Pull down". However, on page 60, 23:19:08 at last, he said "Pull Up".
Rather, the captain would order to FO to help him with trim wheel: "Roll down", but is difficult to imagine the THS position, as this graph has been omitted.
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Groooan- here we go again
AirAsia Flight 8501s pilots effectively wrestled each other at the A320 jets controls as they sought to fight off an electronics-system failure, said a report that recommended Airbus change its control sticks to resemble Boeings.
Report on AirAsia crash urges change to Airbus cockpit controls | The Seattle Times
AirAsia Flight 8501s pilots effectively wrestled each other at the A320 jets controls as they sought to fight off an electronics-system failure, said a report that recommended Airbus change its control sticks to resemble Boeings.
By Herdaru Purnomo, Fathiya Dahrul
Yudith Ho
Goes on ....
Bloomberg News
Report on AirAsia crash urges change to Airbus cockpit controls | The Seattle Times
AirAsia Flight 8501s pilots effectively wrestled each other at the A320 jets controls as they sought to fight off an electronics-system failure, said a report that recommended Airbus change its control sticks to resemble Boeings.
By Herdaru Purnomo, Fathiya Dahrul
Yudith Ho
Goes on ....
Bloomberg News
So in a but shell a plane crashed because a pair of incompetant pilots couldn't fly straight and level for a few minutes without the auto pilot.
And the Indonesians claim instead that its a design flaw that causes the crash.
Amazing
And the Indonesians claim instead that its a design flaw that causes the crash.
Amazing
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Capn Bloggs; your contributions over time are well worth reading, but if I may, have you flown the A320 or A330 series aircraft? I do understand the strong disagreements regarding the Airbus design and the preference of many for traditional Boeing solutions, but having flown types from all four major manufacturers over a period of 35 years, I think only that when/if one knows one's airplane and adheres to the book, neither presents higher risk than the other. I welcome your thoughts on a thread we must keep reasonable and calm to proceed.
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Unlike AF 447, the airspeed/ Mach indicators were fully functional. Having never flown an Airbus, but having thousands of hours in various aircraft, if I saw a nose pitch up attitude, decreasing airspeed and Mach number, and the aircraft was screaming stall, I would shove the nose down and increase thrust.
It boggles my mind that any pilot with the most rudimentary training would do anything else.
What am I missing here?
It boggles my mind that any pilot with the most rudimentary training would do anything else.
What am I missing here?
Having read the report, sadly I can see exactly how this whole event unrabbled a long time before the day of the accident.
Pilots seeking information from engineers about maintenance fault finding/re-setting things contry to the QRH? I have witnessed that before more than once.
Lots of lessons that can be learn from this accident.
I asked myself the question after reading the report, could this have happened to me? And the answer was yes......... If that's my honest opinion, I'm sure a lot of others would be of the same opinion.
Pilots seeking information from engineers about maintenance fault finding/re-setting things contry to the QRH? I have witnessed that before more than once.
Lots of lessons that can be learn from this accident.
I asked myself the question after reading the report, could this have happened to me? And the answer was yes......... If that's my honest opinion, I'm sure a lot of others would be of the same opinion.
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Quote:
Would either of these accidents happened in an equivalent Boeing? (Control columns vs. side sticks.)
Actually No!
Boeings do not have alternate law with all of the ramifications of a poorly announced change of flight law that adds to the surprise factor.
Maybe Alternate law needs some rethinking of its implementation.
Would either of these accidents happened in an equivalent Boeing? (Control columns vs. side sticks.)
Actually No!
Boeings do not have alternate law with all of the ramifications of a poorly announced change of flight law that adds to the surprise factor.
Maybe Alternate law needs some rethinking of its implementation.
Airbus could fix this issue but someone will still find a way to crash them. My view is that the industry is poorly regulated and the minimum requirements set by ICAO are woeful but even worse than that not applied effectively by many of the CAAs out there.
This will sound like I am slamming the crew but actually it is just evidence of where we are at and the systematic failings that allow pilots to pass all the required checks but still not be able to fly. From what I have seen the same thing happens in other industries...medicine��. I am sure the Crew had Level 4+ English which was good enough to lead to "Pull down" rather than "I have control, let go of the fing stick." Sorry, stress or not communication was not up to scratch. I have seen many People with level 6 certificates that couldn't ask where the dunny is.
As to flying skill, good grief! 56 deg bank? an interesting instrument scan taking place I am sure, but certainly didn't involve the PFD. How a rudder travel limit fault, manual flying and a small altitude change leads to 11,000 ft/min is beyond me. Actually it isn't, it is symptomatic of the level of quality not just of the crew but the airline, regulator and training standards. This is not Swiss cheese it is a thin slice of heated Brie melting to oblivion when the AP fails.
Sorry if I offended but it really pisses me off that our industry is killing people in this way. What next a barrel roll due to hot coffee spilt on a knee.
Part of the problem is that technology is advancing faster than humans can advance. Hours in the logbook means nothing these days when operating these flying computers housed around an airframe.
Every time Apple do a software update is a massive challenge for me.
Every time Apple do a software update is a massive challenge for me.
Originally Posted by FDMII
I think only that when/if one knows one's airplane and adheres to the book, neither presents higher risk than the other.
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...not knowing what inputs the other seater is putting in would concern me.
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Is this something new
Alternate law and the side stick as well as the Airbus controls have been around for at least 30 years! In the past 5 it seems there have been 2 fatal and several other similar instances. Has something changed in the technology or is it an endemic sign of improper training or less experience in the cockpit for similar mistakes to be made repeatedly?
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Has something changed in the technology or is it an endemic sign of improper training or less experience in the cockpit for similar mistakes to be made repeatedly?
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Given the CVR transcript has been so heavily censored, can an Airbus pilot clarify if the second CB required one of the pilots to leave his seat please ?
Even if so, he must have been able to resume it given the bilateral sidestick inputs.
I am just really blown away, after Air France, that pilots could not get out of a stall, and that the pilot in command did not take authority mentally and physically. This seems so basic.
How would he have been aware of the full nose up input of the right hand seat chap ? A small icon ?
Versus : a yoke hitting his balls !
To give a medical analogy, it is like a surgeon seeing a gushing major artery, and just putting a sucker on it for 5 minutes, allowing a patient to bleed out, rather than applying pressure or a clamp to arrest the problem ! Am I wrong to expect more of basic piloting skills ?
I enjoy the threads very much; thanks to all of you for your commentary.
Even if so, he must have been able to resume it given the bilateral sidestick inputs.
I am just really blown away, after Air France, that pilots could not get out of a stall, and that the pilot in command did not take authority mentally and physically. This seems so basic.
How would he have been aware of the full nose up input of the right hand seat chap ? A small icon ?
Versus : a yoke hitting his balls !
To give a medical analogy, it is like a surgeon seeing a gushing major artery, and just putting a sucker on it for 5 minutes, allowing a patient to bleed out, rather than applying pressure or a clamp to arrest the problem ! Am I wrong to expect more of basic piloting skills ?
I enjoy the threads very much; thanks to all of you for your commentary.
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having read the report i will be looking forward to the reply from airbus, i cannot believe the Indonesian DGCA are blaming the RUD TRV LIM as the main issue for the crash !
this crash was caused by a crew following non authorised reset procedures and then being incompetent to deal with the aircraft when it ended up in alternate law.
what was the point of all the training introduced after AF447--all they had to do was fly basic pitch /power whilst they worked out what was happening ----they should have been familiar with the QRH procedures for stall recovery.
why did the capt never push the RED take over PB !!
This was a minor technical issue which resulted in a total hull loss , the DGCA appears to have its own agenda.
this crash was caused by a crew following non authorised reset procedures and then being incompetent to deal with the aircraft when it ended up in alternate law.
what was the point of all the training introduced after AF447--all they had to do was fly basic pitch /power whilst they worked out what was happening ----they should have been familiar with the QRH procedures for stall recovery.
why did the capt never push the RED take over PB !!
This was a minor technical issue which resulted in a total hull loss , the DGCA appears to have its own agenda.
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having read the report i will be looking forward to the reply from airbus, i cannot believe the Indonesian DGCA are blaming the RUD TRV LIM as the main issue for the crash
It's a country in which 'Crashes get caused because it was will of the Almighty' is a perfectly legitimate excuse. No one is ever willing to be accountable for their own actions. You will find that aviation accident reports in Indonesia never put the blame onto a pilot especially if he/she is a local.
I have seen and heard two 737s joking on the radio how they landed after the cloud was below minimums but they just dropped an extra 100 or so feet and 'scud ran' the last 4 miles to the runway and this is considered normal ops in Indonesia.
Using a half cut and eaten watermelon on top of your head as a helmet while you ride your scooter is considered being safe in this place. Now tell me, how do you improve safety in a place like this.
Aussipax yes you can not reach FAC 2 CB whilst in a pilots seat.
(In fact I was once told that AB put all those cB's on the rear panel out of reach intensionaly so you could not reset them in flight)
(In fact I was once told that AB put all those cB's on the rear panel out of reach intensionaly so you could not reset them in flight)
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It's a country in which 'Crashes get caused because it was will of the Almighty' is a perfectly legitimate excuse. No one is ever willing to be accountable for their own actions. You will find that aviation accident reports in Indonesia never put the blame onto a pilot especially if he/she is a local.