Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 1st Mar 2015, 16:11
  #3281 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,295
That article in Bahasa says that they were successful in raising the fuselage.
training wheels is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 16:24
  #3282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 56
Posts: 779
Read it again ... when they say 'badan utama pesawat' they are talking about the wing , they are 'in process' of raising the fuselage.

If you look very closely at the photograph by enlarging it does look like part of the fuselage is still attached to the wing so perhaps that's what they mean.
aseanaero is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 18:41
  #3283 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 76
Posts: 1,452
That is a rather large chunk of wing. That supports the concept of a rather low velocity water entry.

Can anyone verify which wing it is? The fuselage seemed to indicate a slightly left wing down water entry. Logically, the first wing to enter the water might get torn off. Then again, they may have severed the wing from the fuselage while underwater to make the lift easier.
Machinbird is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 20:00
  #3284 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 303
Which wing..

If it would be the right wing, underside, ... In the correct livery version the text "AirAsia" is between the flaptrack fairings of the outside flap. The word Air there points to the wing tip.

If it was the left wing, then the word Air would demand the text being on top of the left wing.... Am not sure if I have seen that. In most (all?) AirAsia 320's pictures the top of the left wing has no text and the top of the right wing carries the registration.

An english translation of Basarnas statements referred to the largest remaining part of the fuselage with one wing intact...
This would suggest that the section between wing and cockpit was damaged far more. So the section between front of wing and the cockpit would have to be severely damaged. With official statements referring to the cockpit as having been buried deep in the mud.

The earlier published series of 9-10 ROV photos showed the right wing .... With winglet missing...

First guess...right wing, but not 100% sure yet.

Dragging it in like this will have shredding and bending effects. KNKT seem to be pretty sure about the cause. But in spite of that properly measuring runout distances on flaps and slats could be quite interesting anyway. Would surprise me if that had been possible before, when reading about divers meeting underwater currents, low visibility, and the like.


Photo quality is not good, but I think the rightwing-underside is shown in both photos. Look at the remaining attached flaptrack system and fairing, also the position and direction of the "AirAsia" text, and similar damage to the wing tip as shown in the ROV photos ...


If indeed this is the largest remaining part then there would be no need (now at least) for the DB30 barge mentioned in a previous post. So that stays what it was, an unconfirmed rumour.

Last edited by A0283; 2nd Mar 2015 at 15:17. Reason: Update under xxxxx plus an attempt to improve readability :-)
A0283 is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2015, 01:17
  #3285 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,295
Originally Posted by aseanaero View Post
Read it again ... when they say 'badan utama pesawat' they are talking about the wing , they are 'in process' of raising the fuselage.

If you look very closely at the photograph by enlarging it does look like part of the fuselage is still attached to the wing so perhaps that's what they mean.
'Badan utama pesawat' translates directly as "primary body of aircraft". Wing is 'sayap' in Bahasa. That article even gives the English translation in the article as 'fuselage'. And yes, I'm fluent in Bahasa.

Badan SAR Nasional (Basarnas) berhasil mengangkat fuselage (bagian badan utama) pesawat AirAsia QZ8501 di Selat Karimata This translates as Basarnas were successful in raising the fuselage of Air Asia QZ8501 in the Karimata straits. If you don't believe me, you can use Google translate.

As for the photo, news agencies use any photos they can find which may or not be directly related to the articles they publish.
training wheels is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2015, 01:43
  #3286 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 56
Posts: 779
The wreckage recovered is 80% wing and 20% fuselage / wing centre box up to floor level , I got that info direct from people who know.

I can confirm that the photo is of the latest recovery not a file photo.

Last edited by aseanaero; 2nd Mar 2015 at 02:38.
aseanaero is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2015, 16:37
  #3287 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 303
Recovery of part of main fuselage and wing and next steps

My own summary of the main points - suggestions, comments and more and better sources are welcome of course:

The main fuselage and right wing components have arrived in Jakarta (Port of Tanjung Priok, North Jakarta) on board Crest Onyx ( March 2nd).

The components have thereafter been transferred administratively to KNKT.

Basarnas has searched the fuselage for remains and personal effects. Some fragments and items were found.

Later, after transferring the components to shore, they will be cut up in sizes that can be transported to a KNKT hangar in Jakarta. Some selected parts will later be reserved for a monument on Kalimantan. In the meantime the wreckage appears to have been transferred to a shallow draft vessel. KN Pacitan was mentioned in an article. So probably this would be the means of transportation more inland.

The Basarnas effort scales back to 2-3 ships for a period of 2 weeks maximum. Then the (active) effort will probably end. The search status is 93 people identified, so still 69 people missing. Four cabin crew, the F/O and the engineer have been identified. The captain is among those still missing.

Cockpit recovery is not on the agenda (yet).


New photos of the docked Onyx showing - roughly:
a. 80 % of the right wing - lower panels still there, flaptracks and fairings still there, no images of the upper skin panels yet,
b. 50 % of the left wing - part of lower panels gone, no images of the upper skin panels yet, suggests turning in left,
c. part of the center fuselage section with 7 windows,
d. both main landing gears in their retracted and stowed positions, wheels still have their tires on them,
e. engines and their mounts appear to have been ripped from the wings, but in a way that appears to have left the wings in 'good' shape,
f. fuselage 'rolled open' - not surprising ref its 'compressed' state on the ROV footage, and the way in which it was retrieved,
g. inside view of fuselage which shows all interiors gone down to almost all isolation blankets (which in my view suggests more angle than a flat splash, and might even suggest a breakup before entering the water, but the only way to get more certainty about this is to have imagery of the cockpit and forward section),
h. the deflated 'sausage' shaped floatation cushions are still partially covering the components,
i. combining one picture with the remark of PPRuNe's aseanaero - the center section is visible, its underside appears to have a caved in bottom panel - would be very interesting to have a high resolution picture of that,

Available sources till now:
i. in total 2 official photos by Basarnas of the recovery of the components, see the post of "aseanaero" above,
ii. in total 4 photos of Crest Onyx in Jakarta,
iii. a 32 second video,

Update on March 4th, 1600 GMT/Z in the meantime:
a. number of photos has increased to about 12-14 yesterday,
b. wing/CS combination was offloaded onshore from Onyx, then apparently reloaded on KN Pacitan, ships are both stopped in Jakarta at the moment,
c. the Main SAR effort by Basarnas has been officially stopped yesterday.
d. a small scale (active) SAR effort will continue for 7 days, with 2 vessels and KN Pacitan when it returns,
e. wreckage will be delivered to a KNKT hangar,

Update on March 6th, 1633 GMT/Z
a. number of photos on the web of fuselage and tail lift has increased again, but all were made about the same time,
b. Crest Onyx has left Jakarta port and has thereby left the operation,
c. KN Pacitan is still in port, unclear if it will used for transport or wreckage is already moving by road,
d. total of identified victims stands at 96,
e. DVI still has 4 other remains, but it may turn out that these do not belong to AirAsia passengers,
f. in the week before March 3rd, no new remains had been found,
g. total missing therefore stands at 66 of which 65 passengers plus the captain,

Update on March 9th, 1610 GMT/Z
a. KN Pacitan appears to be back on the crash location,
b. Basarnas is using KN Pacitan and two (probably smaller) vessels to complete the last week of searching. The search will completely end after that 7 days/1 week.
c. A total of 7 other remains (parts) were found in the wing and fuselage section. Getting DNA results from that will take about 2 weeks.
d. No change in identifications. And no new finds of remains.

Update on March 10th, 1944 GMT/Z
a. Relatives of MH17 passengers have had the opportunity to take a look at the assembled wreckage in the Netherlands. There is no news of offering that to the QZ8501 relatives. It would be interesting to find out if such a visit would help relatives with finding closure.
b. The KNKT/NTSC chief has given an interview on March 2nd in which he appears to assign more importance to the wreckage than thus far (comparing this with his earlier "we know everything" interview statements). He even talks about 'hoping to find new information'.

Update on March 16th, 2356 GMT/Z
a. Here you find a short interview with Mr Tony Fernandes about QZ8501 events and the expected ending of the search.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31912778
The video shows some new video scraps of very good quality. At least much better quality than we had before. So we probably had some lens-blurring done during this investigation too.
b. The search for the missing passengers (and captain) has officially ended on Monday, March 16. Two additional bodies and one parts have been found. This week I also expect an update on DNA results.
c. This will be my last 'short update' post for this stage of the investigation.

Last edited by A0283; 19th Mar 2015 at 23:02. Reason: Final 'short update'.
A0283 is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2015, 13:06
  #3288 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 28
More than 2 months after black boxes recovery

why no news after such long time analysing the black boxes? Are there any prosecutors in Indonesia? Why is no one coming public with the findings?
Bonzo777 is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2015, 14:27
  #3289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 291
Bonzo mate, you ever been to Indonesia?
Flying Clog is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:23
  #3290 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 28
Only as a tourist.
I take it whatever brought down AirAsia is not of immediate technical concern to other A32x carriers.
Bonzo777 is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2015, 17:59
  #3291 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: toofaraway
Posts: 224
Bonzo777

If there were an identified technical issue that other operators need to know about Airbus would have issued an AOT long ago. Not to do so would be far too risky (lawyers...)
toffeez is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2015, 22:22
  #3292 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,994
Rumour heard last night is that one of the flight computers was playing up (and had been on earlier flights) and the captain decided to reboot it………..and then rebooted the good one in error. Loss of control followed.

This sounds to analogous to Twin engine aircraft accidents when the pilot fails to identify the failed engine correctly and shuts down the good engine.

Anyway its just a rumour…...
Sunfish is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:50
  #3293 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,086
" Are there any prosecutors in Indonesia?"

Oh yes, oh yes - and when they get their teeth into you it may be 50 years before they let go.........................

But any prosecutor is NOT a US style DA or a French Magistrate who can blast off on their own - as ever in Indoneisia things require discussion amongst all parties

they get there................... but not very quickly
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2015, 14:07
  #3294 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
In Indonesia, aircraft accident investigations are under the jurisdiction of the National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT).

Prosecutors from the Office of the Attorney General (Kejaksaan Agung) do not get involved unless and until there is evidence of a crime committed.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2015, 17:53
  #3295 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Europe
Age: 40
Posts: 39
Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
Prosecutors from the Office of the Attorney General (Kejaksaan Agung) do not get involved unless and until there is evidence of a crime committed.
I think, in typical legal system, institution authorized to examine whether was comitted a crime or not, is prosecution (and police).
klintE is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2015, 19:21
  #3296 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
I think, in typical legal system, institution authorized to examine whether was comitted a crime or not, is prosecution (and police).
Where you live, maybe -- but that's not typical for most of the world (e.g., US, UK, Canada, Australia, much of Asia including Indonesia).

In most countries (France being a notable exception) there is an clear separation of duties between the prosecutor's office and the police. Criminal investigation & determination is up to the police and similar investigators. Only upon sufficient evidence will the police will refer charges to the prosecutor.

A prosecutor then decides whether those charges should be prosecuted in court (hence the name). Not every crime will be prosecuted. The prosecutor does not perform any investigative functions. If the evidence is not sufficient, the case will be referred back to police.

That is not to say that a prosecutor will simply twiddle his thumbs waiting for the police to bring charges, but it does mean a prosecutor won't normally be involved unless there is evidence of a crime.

In the AirAsia crash, there is no evidence that a crime caused the accident, and therefore no charges are pending from the National Police for a prosecutor to examine.

However:

- Since AirAsia reportedly didn't have the correct license to fly the SBY-SIN route on the day of the crash, a corruption investigation may be underway

- As the AirAsia crash involved death of a French national, a French prosecutor has opened an inquiry in Paris
peekay4 is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2015, 21:14
  #3297 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Europe
Age: 40
Posts: 39
Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
Where you live, maybe -- but that's not typical for most of the world (e.g., US, UK, Canada, Australia, much of Asia including Indonesia).
Believe me, common law system is not the most of the world.
Take a look at this map Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And SE Asia is in most of it in civil law.
But in fact that's not the point.

In the AirAsia crash, there is no evidence that a crime caused the accident, and therefore no charges are pending from the National Police for a prosecutor to examine.
But who stated there was not crime? Who examined the evidences?
In Europe, always when many people got killed and reason is unknown there is an default assumption that it could be a crime and should be investigated by law enforcement.
Of course it's always separate, parallel investigation to Board.
And it works fine. One week and GermanWings mistery is solved and exposed to families, other airlines and public.

In some countries obligation resting on commission to inform law enforcment about suspicion of a crime is enough. I can understand it, but result we can see (or rather cannot see)
klintE is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2015, 22:58
  #3298 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
It's not about common vs. civil law. Rather it's about police vs. judicial/prosecutorial independence. Those are not mutually exclusive to each other.

They way things may work in Europe is 100% irrelevant elsewhere.

In Indonesia, aircraft accidents are (by law) under the jurisdiction of KNKT. They control every aspect of the investigation, including maintaining the chain of evidence.

The National Police is not a party to the investigation unless and until KNKT finds evidence or has suspicion of a crime. The police can't even inspect any evidence without KNKT approval.

Typically, the police waits around until KNKT issues a preliminary report, and then only joins in if the report points to a criminal conduct.

Similarly, the Prosecutor's Office does nothing until KNKT and/or the National Police refers a criminal case to them.

A specialized unit of the National Police (the DVI unit) assists in victim identification and forensics. The Indonesian Army (TNI) and local law enforcement help maintain crash-site security, as required.

However since to date no evidence or suspicion of a crime has been found with regards to the crash itself, there is no "parallel investigation" being conducted by any party other than KNKT.

As mentioned in a post above, there may be police or prosecutor involvement in a possible corruption probe, etc.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:46
  #3299 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,295
For those who can get Channel News Asia on cable or satellite TV, they will televise a documentary of this accident on Monday 6th April at 8pm Singapore local time (UTC +8).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...34&pnref=story
training wheels is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:14
  #3300 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: bangko
Posts: 20
Interesting......

Germanwings is pretty much done deal
Taiwanese ATF also

So why is the Indonesian govt dawdling ?
skippybangkok is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.