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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 3rd Apr 2015, 14:07
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In Indonesia, aircraft accident investigations are under the jurisdiction of the National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT).

Prosecutors from the Office of the Attorney General (Kejaksaan Agung) do not get involved unless and until there is evidence of a crime committed.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 17:53
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Originally Posted by peekay4
Prosecutors from the Office of the Attorney General (Kejaksaan Agung) do not get involved unless and until there is evidence of a crime committed.
I think, in typical legal system, institution authorized to examine whether was comitted a crime or not, is prosecution (and police).
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 19:21
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I think, in typical legal system, institution authorized to examine whether was comitted a crime or not, is prosecution (and police).
Where you live, maybe -- but that's not typical for most of the world (e.g., US, UK, Canada, Australia, much of Asia including Indonesia).

In most countries (France being a notable exception) there is an clear separation of duties between the prosecutor's office and the police. Criminal investigation & determination is up to the police and similar investigators. Only upon sufficient evidence will the police will refer charges to the prosecutor.

A prosecutor then decides whether those charges should be prosecuted in court (hence the name). Not every crime will be prosecuted. The prosecutor does not perform any investigative functions. If the evidence is not sufficient, the case will be referred back to police.

That is not to say that a prosecutor will simply twiddle his thumbs waiting for the police to bring charges, but it does mean a prosecutor won't normally be involved unless there is evidence of a crime.

In the AirAsia crash, there is no evidence that a crime caused the accident, and therefore no charges are pending from the National Police for a prosecutor to examine.

However:

- Since AirAsia reportedly didn't have the correct license to fly the SBY-SIN route on the day of the crash, a corruption investigation may be underway

- As the AirAsia crash involved death of a French national, a French prosecutor has opened an inquiry in Paris
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 21:14
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Originally Posted by peekay4
Where you live, maybe -- but that's not typical for most of the world (e.g., US, UK, Canada, Australia, much of Asia including Indonesia).
Believe me, common law system is not the most of the world.
Take a look at this map Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And SE Asia is in most of it in civil law.
But in fact that's not the point.

In the AirAsia crash, there is no evidence that a crime caused the accident, and therefore no charges are pending from the National Police for a prosecutor to examine.
But who stated there was not crime? Who examined the evidences?
In Europe, always when many people got killed and reason is unknown there is an default assumption that it could be a crime and should be investigated by law enforcement.
Of course it's always separate, parallel investigation to Board.
And it works fine. One week and GermanWings mistery is solved and exposed to families, other airlines and public.

In some countries obligation resting on commission to inform law enforcment about suspicion of a crime is enough. I can understand it, but result we can see (or rather cannot see)
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 22:58
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It's not about common vs. civil law. Rather it's about police vs. judicial/prosecutorial independence. Those are not mutually exclusive to each other.

They way things may work in Europe is 100% irrelevant elsewhere.

In Indonesia, aircraft accidents are (by law) under the jurisdiction of KNKT. They control every aspect of the investigation, including maintaining the chain of evidence.

The National Police is not a party to the investigation unless and until KNKT finds evidence or has suspicion of a crime. The police can't even inspect any evidence without KNKT approval.

Typically, the police waits around until KNKT issues a preliminary report, and then only joins in if the report points to a criminal conduct.

Similarly, the Prosecutor's Office does nothing until KNKT and/or the National Police refers a criminal case to them.

A specialized unit of the National Police (the DVI unit) assists in victim identification and forensics. The Indonesian Army (TNI) and local law enforcement help maintain crash-site security, as required.

However since to date no evidence or suspicion of a crime has been found with regards to the crash itself, there is no "parallel investigation" being conducted by any party other than KNKT.

As mentioned in a post above, there may be police or prosecutor involvement in a possible corruption probe, etc.
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 14:46
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For those who can get Channel News Asia on cable or satellite TV, they will televise a documentary of this accident on Monday 6th April at 8pm Singapore local time (UTC +8).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...34&pnref=story
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Old 4th Apr 2015, 18:14
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Interesting......

Germanwings is pretty much done deal
Taiwanese ATF also

So why is the Indonesian govt dawdling ?
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 13:33
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They are doing their job.

KNKT stated that the full investigation will take 6-7 months (from January) and they appear to be on track to finish their report in June or early July.
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 16:27
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One of our company check pilots recently visited Airbus. They let slip the following:
The a/c had a rudder trim limiter fault. ( MEL or airborne not known)
For some reason the captain pulled the CB's for both FAC's.
While he was out of his seat the FO applied bank to offset a rudder trim input.
The aircraft quickly pitched up to 45 deg, then 105 deg bank......
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 17:28
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It will be interesting to see if this rumor is substantiated by FDR data when the report is released.
If this is what happened, it makes Mr Bonin look like a pretty smooth stick.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 9th Apr 2015 at 18:08.
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 17:32
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Flick roll or what?

My jump to conclusion......How can this manoeuver happen in the described sequence?(yaw, roll then pitchup) even with all protection out of action?
Must be misunderstood third hand word of mouth Wow!
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 18:06
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Left his seat?

Other reports state that he never left his seat. More likely he disabled the FAC's on the overhead panel. If only they were releasing the report as soon as the Germans/French did.
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 19:22
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Jilted

"If only they were releasing the report as soon as the Germans/French did"

Did not. Not for months yet
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Old 10th Apr 2015, 17:46
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We were briefed that Rudder limiter fault was reoccurring. Capt jumped out of seat to pull breakers. Aircraft started to slowly roll unnoticed by FO until over 40 degrees due to rudder. This was rapidly corrected. Then perhaps onset of "the leans" caused FO to rapidly roll aircraft back in the original direction, causing upset and loss of control.


Time will tell. Report in June they say.
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Old 20th May 2015, 00:35
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Still nothing from the Indonesians, must be a very difficult case !
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Old 20th May 2015, 19:36
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Originally Posted by donpizmeov
Aircraft started to slowly roll unnoticed by FO until over 40 degrees due to rudder. This was rapidly corrected. Then perhaps onset of "the leans" caused FO to rapidly roll aircraft back in the original direction, causing upset and loss of control.
Acknowledging that the source of the comment may only be rumor, It will be interesting to see whether we may be seeing another instance of roll PIO.

Yes, time will tell. Will the data really be understood?
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Old 26th May 2015, 16:35
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Originally Posted by captplaystation
Does no-one habitually cruising at Max rather than Optimum ever contemplate the possible ramifications of a TCAS RA ?
A) Your aircraft is likely to be configured in such a way that the TCAS system is aware of this and they will coordinate in such a way that you will not get a climb RA.

B) If you get a climb RA anyways, enter a very gentle climb using your command authority in an emergency situation.

C) If you can't climb, stay level as the other aircraft will have gotten a descend RA and there is enough time given in an RA that the other aircraft will have time to descend.

D) Even if you encounter the very remote event where both of you maintain level because the other guy did not descend, the odds are that you are not on an exact collision course but forecast to be in a given area at the same time and hopefully will not collide. Good Luck.
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Old 28th May 2015, 12:55
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A) Your aircraft is likely to be configured in such a way that the TCAS system is aware of this and they will coordinate in such a way that you will not get a climb RA.
I don't know all the different TCAS systems out there, but in my NG the TCAS does not know if I am flying at maximum altitude.
The manual clearly states that the TCAS may issue climb commands that exceeds the climb capability of the aircraft.
Does this stop me from cruising at maximum altitudes? No.
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Old 30th May 2015, 15:03
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Originally Posted by Machinbird
Acknowledging that the source of the comment may only be rumor, It will be interesting to see whether we may be seeing another instance of roll PIO.

Yes, time will tell. Will the data really be understood?
Not a rumour. Was briefed by Airbus at a conference recently, with the intention of remaining confidential (to a certain extent). The conference was somewhat overshadowed by another tragic aviation event that occurred as it was in progress.

Will all be revealed officially by the Indonesians shortly.
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Old 1st Jun 2015, 03:20
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
I don't know all the different TCAS systems out there, but in my NG the TCAS does not know if I am flying at maximum altitude.
The manual clearly states that the TCAS may issue climb commands that exceeds the climb capability of the aircraft.
Thanks Manada. Obviously I can't speak for all aircraft but I wonder if there are two separate issues.

#1) Above a certain altitude, most modern aircraft have no TCAS climb RA's programmed into them(I'll call it a critical altitude).

#2) As that critical altitude is approached, aircraft performance obviously decreases and depending on aircraft weight and environmental conditions, the aircraft reaches a point where it cannot meet the required climb performance. This point will vary from flight to flight.

These are only guesses.

I flew a turboprop where on a hot day at max takeoff weight, we truly struggled to get to an altitude well below the altitude listed as maximum for Climb RA's on our aircraft.
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