Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
I probably should know the answer to this, but how many modern airliners in cruise flight were brought down by catastrophic structural failure after encountering severe weather?
Slats11
Sorry, cannot agree...remember LAM Embraer190?
You can't have it both ways however. Most scenarios which cause sudden loss of communications will cause lots of debris. Conversely, most scenarios that cause minimal debris imply control and hence communications should be maintained.
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"for all the loss of comms/no comms conspiracy crowd I can assure you that if indeed this aircraft hit severe/extreme turbulence it is almost impossible to use the radios"
Not disagreeing with your general point but some headsets used to have a PTT switch in the headset lead - if you were a 2nd officer watching the other 2 pilots wrestle with a frighteningly vibrating aircraft you can hit that PTT and get your distress call off. (That was how, back in the 70s, I received a distress call citing extreme turbulence). Modern aircraft with a crew of 2 pilots only are far more likely to stay silent.
Not disagreeing with your general point but some headsets used to have a PTT switch in the headset lead - if you were a 2nd officer watching the other 2 pilots wrestle with a frighteningly vibrating aircraft you can hit that PTT and get your distress call off. (That was how, back in the 70s, I received a distress call citing extreme turbulence). Modern aircraft with a crew of 2 pilots only are far more likely to stay silent.
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Well from experience last 30 years if in severe turbulence and trying to dial in the freq on HF or any radio is challenging.
Ones that have seen this can relate.
Eyes and slams cant match, difficult to do.
Ones that have seen this can relate.
Eyes and slams cant match, difficult to do.
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Quite extraordinary to wake up to find this plane has not been found even though there has been several hours of daylight in the area.
Disclaimer : rare visitor to this forum but like many others got caught up in the evolving MH370 mystery.
There are many on here (I guess) who are sailors and it is hard for us to understand how a plane can dissappear given the low cost of position reporting equipment these days. I can fully understand the huge costs of retrofitting any equipment to an aircraft with type approval certification etc but how about this for a cheap simple idea to be incorporated into new builds.
Just a simple tube containing a pressure activated transponder with epirb mounted internally near the tail. Maybe 30cm long and 10cm dia. On take off this would be set to auto. On a normal descent it would be deactivated at say 1000m but in a distress situation the pressure sensitive sensor would release a mechanical spring at say 250m which ejects the epirb. The whole thing could cost less than USD10k and have no hazardous potential for the aircraft (apart from the batteries in the epirb).
Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in 2014.
Disclaimer : rare visitor to this forum but like many others got caught up in the evolving MH370 mystery.
There are many on here (I guess) who are sailors and it is hard for us to understand how a plane can dissappear given the low cost of position reporting equipment these days. I can fully understand the huge costs of retrofitting any equipment to an aircraft with type approval certification etc but how about this for a cheap simple idea to be incorporated into new builds.
Just a simple tube containing a pressure activated transponder with epirb mounted internally near the tail. Maybe 30cm long and 10cm dia. On take off this would be set to auto. On a normal descent it would be deactivated at say 1000m but in a distress situation the pressure sensitive sensor would release a mechanical spring at say 250m which ejects the epirb. The whole thing could cost less than USD10k and have no hazardous potential for the aircraft (apart from the batteries in the epirb).
Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in 2014.
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"Unacceptable... With so many flights going over water. Please don't say they are not designed to be picked up in 150' of water. "
OK, I won't say it.
I think the point is that there could be a floating beacon in the fin that is released by a hydraulic pistol at (say 10m) depth. AFAIK, no aircraft are fitted with this. I can think of best part of $200 million that could have been saved by a general fitment.
OK, I won't say it.
I think the point is that there could be a floating beacon in the fin that is released by a hydraulic pistol at (say 10m) depth. AFAIK, no aircraft are fitted with this. I can think of best part of $200 million that could have been saved by a general fitment.
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"Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in
2014.
Pretty close to what I posted at the same time but I'm not going to apologise. It's not new, the idea of crash locator beacons with several independent automatic deployment methods (hydrostatic pressure, g-sensor, heat etc. has been around for years.
2014.
Pretty close to what I posted at the same time but I'm not going to apologise. It's not new, the idea of crash locator beacons with several independent automatic deployment methods (hydrostatic pressure, g-sensor, heat etc. has been around for years.
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I seem to recall a Captain and 2 x FO's took a very serviceable Airbus from FL380 into the sea after entering TZ turbulence - without transmitting a word to anyone outside the aircraft.
These three "experienced" pilots struggled to understand what was happening to the aircraft, despite thousands of hours of flight time. To me, this AirAsia crash has very similar hallmarks.
There's a subtle difference between "Total Flight Time" and "Experience". The latter involves getting into scrapes, and getting out, with your arse and aircraft intact because you understood, or learnt quickly, what to do.
One must always keep in mind that modern commercial aircraft aren't ripped apart by thunderstorms - they are capable of surviving some major abuse - and that over 90% of air crashes can be sheeted home to pure pilot error.
These three "experienced" pilots struggled to understand what was happening to the aircraft, despite thousands of hours of flight time. To me, this AirAsia crash has very similar hallmarks.
There's a subtle difference between "Total Flight Time" and "Experience". The latter involves getting into scrapes, and getting out, with your arse and aircraft intact because you understood, or learnt quickly, what to do.
One must always keep in mind that modern commercial aircraft aren't ripped apart by thunderstorms - they are capable of surviving some major abuse - and that over 90% of air crashes can be sheeted home to pure pilot error.
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"if in severe turbulence and trying to dial in the freq on HF or any radio is challenging."
You shouldn't have to change frequency on a mayday call - you get instant priority on any channel.
You shouldn't have to change frequency on a mayday call - you get instant priority on any channel.
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Exactly guys...
Some of us are pilots and boaters... I just went over 2000 miles on my vessel with Epirb equipment that was relatively inexpensive and could pin-point my location anywhere in the world. While I'm not trying to compare the two exactly, I think you get my point.
I know the equip. they put on commercial aircraft are designed to withstand catastrophic accidents. So, the question remains why they seem to be saying they are looking for a needle in a haystack. If they are, changes need to be made....
Some of us are pilots and boaters... I just went over 2000 miles on my vessel with Epirb equipment that was relatively inexpensive and could pin-point my location anywhere in the world. While I'm not trying to compare the two exactly, I think you get my point.
I know the equip. they put on commercial aircraft are designed to withstand catastrophic accidents. So, the question remains why they seem to be saying they are looking for a needle in a haystack. If they are, changes need to be made....
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Archie Trammel
Airbubba mentioned some earlier PPRuNe discussion on WX radar training, and that contains a link to another PPRUNE discussion where Archie Trammell, who is considered a bit of a guru when it comes to WX radar, has written an article in a 1987 issue of Business and Commercial Aviation.
For ease of reference (and to enable printing it off or for easy storage), that article is here: Weather Radar (Archie Trammell)
For ease of reference (and to enable printing it off or for easy storage), that article is here: Weather Radar (Archie Trammell)
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Onetrack
All true what you state of course.
However the mind set in that part of the world, getting into a scrape could be classed as having an incident. Now past incidents make you unemployable. I certainly would never have ruled out a person who has made a mistake in their past and learn't from it. It is the people that don't make the odd mistake, that worry the hell out of me.
This is when the culture of fear and retribution influences people not to open up so we all learn from it. Instead it makes people clam up, if they think they can get away with it and hoping to keep their jobs. A huge safety issue right there. As "confidential reporting" is not confidential and will never be.
All true what you state of course.
However the mind set in that part of the world, getting into a scrape could be classed as having an incident. Now past incidents make you unemployable. I certainly would never have ruled out a person who has made a mistake in their past and learn't from it. It is the people that don't make the odd mistake, that worry the hell out of me.
This is when the culture of fear and retribution influences people not to open up so we all learn from it. Instead it makes people clam up, if they think they can get away with it and hoping to keep their jobs. A huge safety issue right there. As "confidential reporting" is not confidential and will never be.
Props are for boats!
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Port Vale. You correct, this it is the latest from Airbus. Refers to a new OEB issued world wide A319/20/21 and A330/A340. My airline issued it in early December 2014. This is a new directive unrelated to the AOA and Pitot replacements post AF447 in 2009/2010. Lets hope we find out what actually happened, before coming to conclusions and hope the search ends soon for the wreckage. God bless the families.
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I probably should know the answer to this, but how many modern airliners in cruise flight were brought down by catastrophic structural failure after encountering severe weather?
All aboard perished.But we usually talk about accident chains. Plane flies into severe weather, and in the process of recovery something terribly goes wrong.
The AA587 crash at Belle Harbor is an example. The A300 flew into wake turbulence (could have been any turbulence) and the FO's aggressive use of rudder caused structural failure and separation of the stabilizer.
In 2008, an Air Canada A319 enroute to Toronto almost suffered the exact same fate, after exceeding vertical stabilizer g-limits. Thankfully it was able to make an emergency landing in Calgary.
Several turboprops, including a couple Twin Otters and a USAF HC-130, have been lost over the years after in flight breakup in turbulence.
Perhaps most famously (aside from the Mt. Fuji incident): during the cold war a B-52 carrying two nuclear bombs also lost its rudder during flight in severe turbulence. The crew had to bail out and the bomber crashed into Savage Mountain in Maryland.
The two nuclear bombs were thankfully recovered intact.
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This video says the search aircraft involved are:
2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore
2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore
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This video says the search aircraft involved are:
2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore
2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore
AirAsia QZ8501: Australia joins search for missing AirAsia flight
Just a comment .....
I am not a conspiracy theorist. But I do know a bit about the search area.
It may not be as busy as Hong Kong harbour, but I do find it odd that at early morning, during daylight hours, that no one saw this aircraft in it's final moments.
I know that weather would have caused conditions of limited visibility and it's a big ocean.
And even if seen then, crew on small surface vessels may not have any capability to report until they return to shore.
But it is usually pretty busy with all types of surface activity in that region.
Of course we must just wait and see. But I do find it a bit strange.
It may not be as busy as Hong Kong harbour, but I do find it odd that at early morning, during daylight hours, that no one saw this aircraft in it's final moments.
I know that weather would have caused conditions of limited visibility and it's a big ocean.
And even if seen then, crew on small surface vessels may not have any capability to report until they return to shore.
But it is usually pretty busy with all types of surface activity in that region.
Of course we must just wait and see. But I do find it a bit strange.
