Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 29th Dec 2014, 04:53
  #281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern Shores of Lusitania
Age: 48
Posts: 602
Slats11
You can't have it both ways however. Most scenarios which cause sudden loss of communications will cause lots of debris. Conversely, most scenarios that cause minimal debris imply control and hence communications should be maintained.
Sorry, cannot agree...remember LAM Embraer190?
JanetFlight is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 04:59
  #282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Australia
Age: 70
Posts: 19
"for all the loss of comms/no comms conspiracy crowd I can assure you that if indeed this aircraft hit severe/extreme turbulence it is almost impossible to use the radios"


Not disagreeing with your general point but some headsets used to have a PTT switch in the headset lead - if you were a 2nd officer watching the other 2 pilots wrestle with a frighteningly vibrating aircraft you can hit that PTT and get your distress call off. (That was how, back in the 70s, I received a distress call citing extreme turbulence). Modern aircraft with a crew of 2 pilots only are far more likely to stay silent.
Richard C is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:05
  #283 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 844
Well from experience last 30 years if in severe turbulence and trying to dial in the freq on HF or any radio is challenging.
Ones that have seen this can relate.
Eyes and slams cant match, difficult to do.
Earl is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:09
  #284 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 11
Quite extraordinary to wake up to find this plane has not been found even though there has been several hours of daylight in the area.

Disclaimer : rare visitor to this forum but like many others got caught up in the evolving MH370 mystery.

There are many on here (I guess) who are sailors and it is hard for us to understand how a plane can dissappear given the low cost of position reporting equipment these days. I can fully understand the huge costs of retrofitting any equipment to an aircraft with type approval certification etc but how about this for a cheap simple idea to be incorporated into new builds.

Just a simple tube containing a pressure activated transponder with epirb mounted internally near the tail. Maybe 30cm long and 10cm dia. On take off this would be set to auto. On a normal descent it would be deactivated at say 1000m but in a distress situation the pressure sensitive sensor would release a mechanical spring at say 250m which ejects the epirb. The whole thing could cost less than USD10k and have no hazardous potential for the aircraft (apart from the batteries in the epirb).

Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in 2014.
paultr is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:10
  #285 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Australia
Age: 70
Posts: 19
"Unacceptable... With so many flights going over water. Please don't say they are not designed to be picked up in 150' of water. "


OK, I won't say it.


I think the point is that there could be a floating beacon in the fin that is released by a hydraulic pistol at (say 10m) depth. AFAIK, no aircraft are fitted with this. I can think of best part of $200 million that could have been saved by a general fitment.
Richard C is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:15
  #286 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Australia
Age: 70
Posts: 19
"Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in
2014.


Pretty close to what I posted at the same time but I'm not going to apologise. It's not new, the idea of crash locator beacons with several independent automatic deployment methods (hydrostatic pressure, g-sensor, heat etc. has been around for years.
Richard C is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:15
  #287 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 70
Posts: 1,806
I seem to recall a Captain and 2 x FO's took a very serviceable Airbus from FL380 into the sea after entering TZ turbulence - without transmitting a word to anyone outside the aircraft.
These three "experienced" pilots struggled to understand what was happening to the aircraft, despite thousands of hours of flight time. To me, this AirAsia crash has very similar hallmarks.
There's a subtle difference between "Total Flight Time" and "Experience". The latter involves getting into scrapes, and getting out, with your arse and aircraft intact because you understood, or learnt quickly, what to do.
One must always keep in mind that modern commercial aircraft aren't ripped apart by thunderstorms - they are capable of surviving some major abuse - and that over 90% of air crashes can be sheeted home to pure pilot error.
onetrack is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:17
  #288 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Australia
Age: 70
Posts: 19
"if in severe turbulence and trying to dial in the freq on HF or any radio is challenging."


You shouldn't have to change frequency on a mayday call - you get instant priority on any channel.
Richard C is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:20
  #289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 22
Exactly guys...

Some of us are pilots and boaters... I just went over 2000 miles on my vessel with Epirb equipment that was relatively inexpensive and could pin-point my location anywhere in the world. While I'm not trying to compare the two exactly, I think you get my point.

I know the equip. they put on commercial aircraft are designed to withstand catastrophic accidents. So, the question remains why they seem to be saying they are looking for a needle in a haystack. If they are, changes need to be made....
letsjet is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:30
  #290 (permalink)  
Prof. Airport Engineer
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia (mostly)
Posts: 726
Archie Trammel

Airbubba mentioned some earlier PPRuNe discussion on WX radar training, and that contains a link to another PPRuNe discussion where Archie Trammell, who is considered a bit of a guru when it comes to WX radar, has written an article in a 1987 issue of Business and Commercial Aviation.

For ease of reference (and to enable printing it off or for easy storage), that article is here: Weather Radar (Archie Trammell)
OverRun is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:32
  #291 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Tree
Posts: 222
Onetrack

All true what you state of course.

However the mind set in that part of the world, getting into a scrape could be classed as having an incident. Now past incidents make you unemployable. I certainly would never have ruled out a person who has made a mistake in their past and learn't from it. It is the people that don't make the odd mistake, that worry the hell out of me.

This is when the culture of fear and retribution influences people not to open up so we all learn from it. Instead it makes people clam up, if they think they can get away with it and hoping to keep their jobs. A huge safety issue right there. As "confidential reporting" is not confidential and will never be.
Sop_Monkey is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:34
  #292 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3
PORTVALE Turns out does not relate to 320-200.
rtpilot1 is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:47
  #293 (permalink)  
Props are for boats!
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: An Asian Hub
Age: 51
Posts: 989
Port Vale. You correct, this it is the latest from Airbus. Refers to a new OEB issued world wide A319/20/21 and A330/A340. My airline issued it in early December 2014. This is a new directive unrelated to the AOA and Pitot replacements post AF447 in 2009/2010. Lets hope we find out what actually happened, before coming to conclusions and hope the search ends soon for the wreckage. God bless the families.
Sheep Guts is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:55
  #294 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
I probably should know the answer to this, but how many modern airliners in cruise flight were brought down by catastrophic structural failure after encountering severe weather?
Well, back in the 1980s a Dutch F-28 flew into a tornado, causing it's right wing to detach. All aboard perished.

But we usually talk about accident chains. Plane flies into severe weather, and in the process of recovery something terribly goes wrong.

The AA587 crash at Belle Harbor is an example. The A300 flew into wake turbulence (could have been any turbulence) and the FO's aggressive use of rudder caused structural failure and separation of the stabilizer.

In 2008, an Air Canada A319 enroute to Toronto almost suffered the exact same fate, after exceeding vertical stabilizer g-limits. Thankfully it was able to make an emergency landing in Calgary.

Several turboprops, including a couple Twin Otters and a USAF HC-130, have been lost over the years after in flight breakup in turbulence.

Perhaps most famously (aside from the Mt. Fuji incident): during the cold war a B-52 carrying two nuclear bombs also lost its rudder during flight in severe turbulence. The crew had to bail out and the bomber crashed into Savage Mountain in Maryland.

The two nuclear bombs were thankfully recovered intact.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 05:57
  #295 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,295
The search areas this morning are being divided up in to 7 sectors.



Source
training wheels is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 06:14
  #296 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,295
This video says the search aircraft involved are:

2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore
training wheels is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 06:21
  #297 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 357
Originally Posted by training wheels View Post
This video says the search aircraft involved are:

2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore
add 1x AP-3C Orion from Australia

AirAsia QZ8501: Australia joins search for missing AirAsia flight
p.j.m is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 06:23
  #298 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Aer
Posts: 427
NAS 532 "Built" (Assembled) by IPTN in Bandung. Old aircraft now but far better than the NBO 105s of BASARNAS
terminus mos is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 06:24
  #299 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Balikpapan, INDONESIA
Age: 67
Posts: 518
Just a comment .....

I am not a conspiracy theorist. But I do know a bit about the search area.

It may not be as busy as Hong Kong harbour, but I do find it odd that at early morning, during daylight hours, that no one saw this aircraft in it's final moments.
I know that weather would have caused conditions of limited visibility and it's a big ocean.
And even if seen then, crew on small surface vessels may not have any capability to report until they return to shore.
But it is usually pretty busy with all types of surface activity in that region.

Of course we must just wait and see. But I do find it a bit strange.
WingNut60 is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2014, 06:32
  #300 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 399
A320 Max Rec alt FL39800'


-low cost carrier checks in 162 soles at Asian weights of 73kg (circa), but more like 100kg each... (after all its Christmas)


-2Hr flight with alternate, maybe distant due SIN Wx.


-Bit of extra fuel added.


-On this day and early in the flight, Max Rec probably about FL385.(but possibly lower)


.... so heavy


-ISA +


-Request for climb FL380 (according to media reports)


-ITCZ activity (normal for this region)


-Probably a couple more slices of Reason cheese.. (late finish, early start,
probes iced up ..or some other factor that we are yet to find out about)


-Some speed brake (Airbus people will understand) use, then ..VLS ... [email protected] AP disco ..Vmax ...thrust lock... etc


Equals = Classic jet upset probably with incorrect recovery technique.


(A320 does not like going high, near Max Rec)
slamer. is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.