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Dublin: 2 x RYR in contact during taxi. Both damaged.

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Dublin: 2 x RYR in contact during taxi. Both damaged.

Old 9th Oct 2014, 17:40
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Let us first ignore the usual unpromising hysterics who shriek every time Ryanair has an incident. They are all, without doubt, sciolists (one who speaks with fancied wisdom and little knowledge).

I retired some years ago from 50 years of professional (accident free) flying and I was very familiar with Dublin Airport.

I am quite sure that dozens of us were aware that the south east corner of that airfield, after they built runway 28, was an accident waiting to happen. To say that this little corner, even on a CAVOK day, is busy, is an understatement.

In fact, I have just downloaded an IAA Aerodrome Chart (EIDW AD 2.24-1) which has, at the top left hand corner, an insert diagram entitled (in red) "Runway Incursion Hot Spots". This shows the problem beautifully.

In the morning nowadays, departures are made from runway 28 and 34 simultaniously so that part of the airfield can get quite congested. If you want my opinion (and you probably don't) my guess is that the aircraft holding short of 28 was being super-safe and holding back a bit further than normal. The aircraft heading for 34 tried to taxi past but mis-judged his wing tip clearance by about 10 feet.

Now, as an ex-DC-10 captain, I need to tell the great unwashed on this thread that it is quite impossible from the flight deck to judge where your wing tip is within 30 feet or so (see BA 744 at JNB).

What I really would like is for Pprune to go back to a forum for Professional Pilots and stop the idiots from doing anything else but observing.

Finally, my worst experience of the bottom corner of Dublin airport was one night when we taxied out in fog from what is now known as the South Apron.
I was the training captain to our CAA Inspector (who was a bloody good operator). Somehow or other, he missed F1 in the fog and so did I (I was on the radio) and I suddenly realised that he had taxied across Runway 34 and we were on E2 about to enter Runway 28!
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 17:53
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JW411

shame we don't wear hats at my company, if we did, I'd doff mine for your excellent narrative on this
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 18:01
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It was "foggy" that morning in Dublin.
Maybe why the "super safe" stop.

(I assume the "first" a/c was stopped and the "following" a/c was in motion ?)
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 18:45
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There doesn't appear to be anything super safe about stopping too far away from the holding point and in fact goes against convention, wisdom and standing instructions. Flybe Vs Pakistan in Manchester for instance.
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 22:00
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Oh Lord, have you seen any evidence to show they stopped excessively far from the holding point?
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Old 9th Oct 2014, 23:44
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No. Have you?
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 05:00
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Given the previous comments I wonder if Dublin will now adopt that tedious ATIS warning so loved by those that operate out of LHR........"pilots should exercise....
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 06:26
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Do you think that if this incident had involved two small airlines from eastern Europe it would have run to three pages and 50 posts ?

I can't help thinking that there is more anti Ryanair rant than fact written above.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 07:28
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I can't help thinking that there is more anti Ryanair rant than fact written above

Many such persons are actually suffering from a psychological condition - I think they call it something like cognitive dissonance.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 08:28
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It may be true that commands are swift in Ryanair for some.

But let us not forget that there are many experienced older pilots who have been in the industry in many years, some previously operating in carriers who have faced demise, who fly for them and have well in excess of tens of thousand hours per individual and are aged accordingly.

That experience is also around and thus to say that each Ryanair crew is young or inexperienced just does't stand.

There is a balance amongst operating crew in terms of age and knowledge like in many airlines. The one "Ryanair" (but equally read "easyJet") difference is that some crew are allowed an upgrade when they meet the criteria, while in may other airlines those criteria are only tested when seniority allows them to be tested.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 09:09
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there is genuine concern amongst Pilots about the overall age [...] level of ryanair crew's (sic)
Good Sir, please speak for yourself. I don't share that concern. I have nothing but the utmost respect for RYR pilots. To the best of my knowledge none of them are toddlers (or geriatric, for that matter). I have yet to see an accident report where age was a concern. As much as I dislike MOL, RYR pilots are well trained and their safety record is excellent. You state you are 33 years old... hmm. Using “amongst” does make your post look a bit like fiction btw. You're no doubt a talented novelist.

Last edited by deptrai; 10th Oct 2014 at 11:10.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 11:41
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Originally Posted by A and C
Do you think that if this incident had involved two small airlines from eastern Europe it would have run to three pages and 50 posts ?

I can't help thinking that there is more anti Ryanair rant than fact written above.
Much like other specific airline threads, like Jet2, hey A and C?!
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 12:16
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One of the most difficult parts of any flight I did over 42 years, in seat 0A or 0B, was finding my way to/from the runway from/to the parking stand.

Despite all the ICAO waffle about standard airfield markings, this is still one of the most inadequately managed resources for aircrew to navigate around airfields.

My dream is to take one of those individuals responsible for such signage on a very early morning or late night trip, when they are fatigued in the thorough and scientific way beloved of airline scheduling/commercial departments.
Technology is already there to do that elsewhere and available for 100 or less and used in cars every single day.

Bearing in mind the millions invested in Sat Nav for cars it isn't really that difficult to do same for airports. Hell GPS is used by train companies to ensure that the correct doors are open at each station.

It would then become a mandatory requirement on some of the busiest airports that this is carried and used.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 12:20
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Now, as an ex-DC-10 captain, I need to tell the great unwashed on this thread that it is quite impossible from the flight deck to judge where your wing tip is within 30 feet or so (see BA 744 at JNB).
Good post JW.

The retro fitting of cameras to wing tips with cockpit display and recorded as well and fitting where ever else required would be a saving v sending to the repair shop.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 13:59
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Originally Posted by racedo
The retro fitting of cameras to wing tips with cockpit display and recorded as well and fitting where ever else required would be a saving v sending to the repair shop.
I doubt that yet another video display would be useful - an alerting system much like those fitted to cars perhaps even with the add on of automatic application of brakes would be useful.

Far more useful would be sensible design of airports where a few extra square meters of concrete would solve many of these issues.

Signage will always be an issue especially in blowing snow or frost and/or into sun with wet surfaces. It is probable that the new enhanced vision systems could assist with that, but they will bring their own suite of unintended consequences and problems. GPS systems sound good but are not the universal cure, yes we all use them in cars, but I have yet to meet a driver who uses his GPS to keep on the correct side of the road, and its that level of accuracy or better that you would need.

Nothing beats extreme caution and local knowledge which unfortunately are often mutually exclusive.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 14:51
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JW - as you mention chart EIDW AD 2.24-1 clearly shows 'Runway Incursion Hot Spots'. No doubt they will have to change this to read 'Runway and Taxiway Incursion Spots'. One shouldn't have to rely on 'local knowledge' to cover up bad design.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 16:02
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There is genuine concern amongst Pilots about the overall age and experience level of the Ryanair crew's. Ryanair have never put this one to bed. They put to bed on-time arrival, loss of luggage etc. but not this
And there's some pilots who are in there 50s and 60s with tens of thousands of hours who are crap. Experience counts for nothing when you aren't using it properly or remain clueless in its use. Equally you can have a bad day, regardless of who's piece of metal you're flying. Additionally, there's plenty of reports out there where guys who have flown next to everything doing something considerably more eyebrow raising than hitting a winglet against a horizontal stabiliser at an airport with a notoriously bad layout.

I'm willing to bet this wasn't a new Captain / line released cadet combo at DUB; however I feel that's completely irrelevant in this matter. I know nothing of who it was but what I do know is that FR has both inexperience and a high level of experience, like many airlines. It also has a pretty decent safety record that is upheld by well trained, diligent crew. Keep the hatred of all things O'Leary elsewhere.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 19:04
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
The retro fitting of cameras to wing tips with cockpit display and recorded as well and fitting where ever else required would be a saving v sending to the repair shop.


Mk.1 eyeball out the side window helps as well. If in doubt there is not doubt; so you stop!! You can see the wingtip of a B738 if you look. What is difficult is to see the unlit tail plane of an a/c. I've been following many an a/c at night in a heavily lit airport and apron area. There might be a tiny white pimple on the tail cone, or perhaps not. There are rear shining white lights on the wing tips, but might be nowt on the tail. You have to be aware they are there and then search carefully for the preceding a/c. Modern cars have more lights on their rear ends than a/c. Why? It is easy to get close to a long a/c's tail in the dark. You just have to be careful and vigilant. JFK was a nightmare. It was a convoy of B747/767/757. The wing tip lights are a LONG way in front of the tail and against the lights of the terminal etc. the a/c can be invisible. Take care out there.
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 23:40
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Taxi =link 4/5 fox outer/inner hold short 28

Landing= taxi bravo, mike or hotel cross 34 and link to stand

Challenging alright!!!!
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Old 10th Oct 2014, 23:48
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statement 1)there's some pilots who are in there 50s and 60s with tens of thousands of hours who are crap


statement 2)what I do know is that FR has both inexperience and a high level of experience, like many Airlines


Really, Kallsign Kilo ? You seem to have the scientific evidence in hand with such bold statements...Or are you trying to defend your own background?


These old skippers, and I am one of them, are still alive after those tens of thousands of hours, and we did not have the magenta line 30 years ago, nor the magic box called fmc you guys can't fly without, nor the terrain warning systems, TCAS, fancy colour wx radar with WS prediction etc etc so we can't be that crap, can we?


Ryanair knows very well,Unlike the typerating you payed for, that experience cannot be bought, that is why they have implemented such strict sop's in the hope that the inevitable, will never happen...


and as a piece of advice from my side :a little respect for the old boys would suit you as well as they paved the way for your warm comfortable seat


*all in my humble opinion ofcourse*

Last edited by space pig; 12th Oct 2014 at 11:10.
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