Air Algerie loses contact with its plane leaving Ouagadougou
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Oops, my mistake, thanks, mis-read some of the report on first quick read. Now I see the engines didn't spool down until later. The speed loss is very strange then.
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Is this not paradoxical?
A stick pusher is a requirement for T-tail aircraft that can become locked into a stall if stalled too deeply. I recall reading that the DC-9 and MD-80 aircraft were apparently tweaked and demonstrated to not enter that regime, so no stick pusher was required.
The stick pusher is not there to keep you from stalling, it is there to keep you from getting stuck in a stall with no way out.
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MD-80s' stick pusher
MD-80 has both a stick shaker and stick pusher. Is the first -without trace- triggered a bit earlier than the latter?
The control seemed to be lost very quickly after the beginning of the second EPR anomaly and the airflow distorded around the whole plane, far from the traditional shematics theorizing "stall" around a sole wing profile, or on over-simplified polar curves of aircrafts who are said "don't stalling", or not discriminating wings of different stall behaviour pitching down or not.
I agree to use that Machinbird's expression - a full develloped stall- allowed by his experience of flights in transient situations, at the limits of the flight envelop, which was the case too in that upset. Probably in the helicoidal dive the AOA on one wing or both was lower than the wind tunnel wing stall AOA with classical speed range.
The control seemed to be lost very quickly after the beginning of the second EPR anomaly and the airflow distorded around the whole plane, far from the traditional shematics theorizing "stall" around a sole wing profile, or on over-simplified polar curves of aircrafts who are said "don't stalling", or not discriminating wings of different stall behaviour pitching down or not.
I agree to use that Machinbird's expression - a full develloped stall- allowed by his experience of flights in transient situations, at the limits of the flight envelop, which was the case too in that upset. Probably in the helicoidal dive the AOA on one wing or both was lower than the wind tunnel wing stall AOA with classical speed range.
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Stall ident
Originally Posted by Machinbird
A stick pusher is a requirement for T-tail aircraft that can become locked into a stall if stalled too deeply. I recall reading that the DC-9 and MD-80 aircraft were apparently tweaked and demonstrated to not enter that regime, so no stick pusher was required.
You are correct in that lack of nose-down pitch often goes together with a tendency to develop a 'locked in' stall if recovery action is not taken promptly.
FAA AC 25-7 Flight Test Guide refers to a stick-pusher as a "stall identification device".
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You are correct in that lack of nose-down pitch often goes together with a tendency to develop a 'locked in' stall if recovery action is not taken promptly.
For some reason, the crew did not recover from the resulting spiral dive. The wings were not leveled which is the first step in recovering from this type departure.
Application of g while wing down-nose down just winds the spiral tighter.
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I don't see where they recovered from the initial stall, it appears they continued to descend while the speed recovered slightly, before the speed reduced again until the final dive.
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I wonder if it's time to require 5 hrs of aerobatic of training for your commercial pilot license?
As a civilian trained pilot I didn't think it was necessary. Military training made me realize how valuable the training experience was.
As a civilian trained pilot I didn't think it was necessary. Military training made me realize how valuable the training experience was.
The best way to train unusual attitudes (in French "positions inusuelles") in IMC is VMC aerobatics once again
The advantage of using a full flight simulator to teach U/A recovery techniques is that a competent simulator instructor can "freeze" the manoeuvre at any point - including fully inverted. With the scene "frozen" it allows the student the opportunity to more closely study the various flight instruments indications rather than have to work so fast to assimilate everything within a critical few seconds. The Sky Pointer is the key to getting the wings level as quickly as possible but it is quite surprising how many pilots do not know or have never heard of its use. This is an indictment on the pilots elementary instrument flying training. But it is soon rectified with appropriate simulator instruction.
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The interest of the actual sky without an artificial horizon is to refer to the sky pointer connected to the emphasised large natural horizon, and ability to teach a safe scan.
As instructor of newbees I watched that the best students had an already educated sight and body tonic posture : practising gymnastic, deltaplane and theater ! That physical knowledge of level and vertical is the clue to learn to move in 3D . But we know that doing an exercise has much more efficiency than having the demonstration by the the instructor, and doing it solo needs a total confidence in what you are doing. It is the next step after demonstration. Only then you stop hiding the artificial horizon -if one- or may start simulator training for instrument flight first with the artificial horizon -so small!- and later with partial panel (is it how you call our french "panneau partiel"? ) with the final exercise described by Machinbird in the Cougar back seat with the "sadist" managing the unusual position and being so happy when his student does that well! We cannot jump over these steps. Not everything has been bad in the new method to teach piloting but any pedagogy mistakes have been made forgetting the third dimension and body adequate education.
As instructor of newbees I watched that the best students had an already educated sight and body tonic posture : practising gymnastic, deltaplane and theater ! That physical knowledge of level and vertical is the clue to learn to move in 3D . But we know that doing an exercise has much more efficiency than having the demonstration by the the instructor, and doing it solo needs a total confidence in what you are doing. It is the next step after demonstration. Only then you stop hiding the artificial horizon -if one- or may start simulator training for instrument flight first with the artificial horizon -so small!- and later with partial panel (is it how you call our french "panneau partiel"? ) with the final exercise described by Machinbird in the Cougar back seat with the "sadist" managing the unusual position and being so happy when his student does that well! We cannot jump over these steps. Not everything has been bad in the new method to teach piloting but any pedagogy mistakes have been made forgetting the third dimension and body adequate education.
I wonder if it's time to require 5 hrs of aerobatic of training for your commercial pilot license?
As a civilian trained pilot I didn't think it was necessary. Military training made me realize how valuable the training experience was.
As a civilian trained pilot I didn't think it was necessary. Military training made me realize how valuable the training experience was.
D.P.Davies in his classic book "Handling the Big Jets" stated airline pilots should have unusual attitude refresher/training in basic a/c on a regular basis (I think he said once a year).
Interesting that the book was written in the 1960s!
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Originally Posted by misd-agin
I wonder if it's time to require 5 hrs of aerobatic of training for your commercial pilot license?
As a civilian trained pilot I didn't think it was necessary. Military training made me realize how valuable the training experience was
As a civilian trained pilot I didn't think it was necessary. Military training made me realize how valuable the training experience was
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Searching old logbooks,we had some twenty hrs unusual attitudes with C150 Bat.-Most of them probably self-induced...-But at least it wasn`t a scare when blue turned to brown,or contra. Some were flown "bagged",as someone described it so well. I am a bit surprised to read that such training is not included in initial training syllabus,for some airlines. Be it even 150,turning it upside down gives You much confidence of how to handle an airplane. Nowadays they seem to have an Extra 300 just for that purpose.
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roulisholldandais:
Airline bean counters don't think in those terms. They have insurance for disasters but not a budget to increase training. It is the way of our air carrier world.
5 hrs only ? How much was the cost to find the AF447 wreckage ?
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Upset recovery is a part of the recurrent training, and is a beeing recognised as a major threat (just like CIFT was some years ago)
Bean counters have no influence what so ever, FAA, ICAO JAA are looking closely into the problem and are addressing it.
Bean counters have no influence what so ever, FAA, ICAO JAA are looking closely into the problem and are addressing it.
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stall developed in spin
See FDR graphs of the interim report, it seems that the initial stall developed in a spin. Watch graphs for pitch, roll and heading.
The steps for recovery from a spin are:
1 cut throttle
2 apply enough rudder to stop rotation
3 reduce AOA
4 level off, roll and pitch at horizontal
..as well shown in this FAA video at 11:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oms3r1q6Gs#t=687
Apparently, PF either didn't observed the arc rotation or he forgot to stop rotation before pulling, as in video below at 1:22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkYXhLwlHrg#t=82
The steps for recovery from a spin are:
1 cut throttle
2 apply enough rudder to stop rotation
3 reduce AOA
4 level off, roll and pitch at horizontal
..as well shown in this FAA video at 11:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oms3r1q6Gs#t=687
Apparently, PF either didn't observed the arc rotation or he forgot to stop rotation before pulling, as in video below at 1:22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkYXhLwlHrg#t=82
Last edited by _Phoenix_; 28th Sep 2014 at 16:18. Reason: added text
A point to make on using simulators for upset training in large aircraft. Currently as far as I know there are no simulators where this can be done. Current simulators don't have the fidelity and are not programmed to mimic transport category aircraft beyond a approach to a stall. There are several reasons for this but the biggest is a lack of flight test data to provide any real fidelity for a full stalled aircraft.
