Air Algerie loses contact with its plane leaving Ouagadougou
GoS,
It's here: Swiftair speed decay echoes previous MD-80 episodes - 8/8/2014 - Flight Global
JammedStab quoted the whole article, without attribution
It's here: Swiftair speed decay echoes previous MD-80 episodes - 8/8/2014 - Flight Global
JammedStab quoted the whole article, without attribution
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"Comparaison n'est pas raison"
It is too early to apply West Caribbean conclusions to Air Algerie flight without having the full DFDR informations. Machinbird's comment for instance opened the door to another dynamic and scenario. Deepstalls build much drag.
It is too early to apply West Caribbean conclusions to Air Algerie flight without having the full DFDR informations. Machinbird's comment for instance opened the door to another dynamic and scenario. Deepstalls build much drag.
Last edited by roulishollandais; 9th Aug 2014 at 10:24. Reason: s
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Before I demonstrated five times how to recover from MD83' dutch roll in less than 1000 ft, 30sec, bank<30°, the other crew lost very quickly 11000' , on the back from left and right, very high vertical speed (Finnair simulator, 1992)
Last edited by roulishollandais; 9th Aug 2014 at 10:57. Reason: ref, Vs
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No stick pusher.
Engines anomaly from 01:38 finishing around 01:41
After 01:45 typical lateral oscillations without never coming level : former wing reparation failure in turbulence ?
Engines anomaly from 01:38 finishing around 01:41
After 01:45 typical lateral oscillations without never coming level : former wing reparation failure in turbulence ?
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There is a lot of information available from the flight path graphic.
The accident appears to have developed as a loss of airspeed awareness leading to a fully developed stall and roll off departure to the port side with post stall gyrations. The nose then became planted way nose down, left wing down as the stall broke, but they never recovered from the nose down-wing down attitude.
When you plant the nose as deeply as it was in this case, you have the effect of the almost the entire aircraft weight in force acting to accelerate the aircraft (sort of like going into afterburner on steroids). It is virtually impossible to maintain a stall.
For some reason, the crew was unable to level the wings and recover to level flight. Without the CVR, unless they find some physical evidence of damage to the airframe preventing leveling of the wings, the crew will be blamed both for the departure and the failure to recover.
Using known aircraft performance data, the specific reasons for the deceleration into the stall should be understood (eg the West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 scenario).
The accident appears to have developed as a loss of airspeed awareness leading to a fully developed stall and roll off departure to the port side with post stall gyrations. The nose then became planted way nose down, left wing down as the stall broke, but they never recovered from the nose down-wing down attitude.
When you plant the nose as deeply as it was in this case, you have the effect of the almost the entire aircraft weight in force acting to accelerate the aircraft (sort of like going into afterburner on steroids). It is virtually impossible to maintain a stall.
For some reason, the crew was unable to level the wings and recover to level flight. Without the CVR, unless they find some physical evidence of damage to the airframe preventing leveling of the wings, the crew will be blamed both for the departure and the failure to recover.
Using known aircraft performance data, the specific reasons for the deceleration into the stall should be understood (eg the West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 scenario).
The accident appears to have developed as a loss of airspeed awareness leading to a fully developed stall and roll off departure to the port side with post stall gyrations. The nose then became planted way nose down, left wing down as the stall broke, but they never recovered from the nose down-wing down attitude.
Accidents involving failure to recover from inadvertent unusual attitudes have a common denominator of being in IMC or at night. For that reason the importance of training to recover on instruments needs to be emphasised during simulator sessions. While it is agreed most simulators do not have the fidelity in control forces to fully comply with the aircraft behaviour, the main point is the flight instruments will have the fidelity. It is flight instrument interpretation that is the key to safe recovery in IMC and for that reason training on extreme unusual attitude interpretation and recovery on instruments will be better than nothing at all. Simulator instructors themselves need to be fully competent to demonstrate U/A recoveries rather than at present simply sit at the instructor station and rely on the student to work it out for himself based upon book descriptions.
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Machinbird
Centaurus
Another question:
Do they train seriously to check speed under any circumstances ?
The accident appears to have developed as a loss of airspeed awareness leading to a fully developed stall
That is not at all surprising. Few operators train seriously for unusual attitude recoveries in the simulator.
Do they train seriously to check speed under any circumstances ?
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I agree that UA experience in a sim is a box-ticking exercise. Much more emphasis, with many operators, is stedfast compliance with SOP's and maximum use of automatics to steer well clear of any UA possibility. Mother nature combined with human nature strives endlessly to spoil the party. When that happens the extreme lack of basic IR scan, handling skills and knowledge of a/c capabilities is thrown to the fore and too many pilots are found wanting. Sadly the conclusion of resulting accident is often 'pilot error' rather than 'training/company culture' error.
This theme has been beaten to death on here, mote than once, motivated by an unavoidable accident. It saddens me to hear that various airlines have pilots who are considered to be highly trained and competent and thus attractive for the rapidly expanding companies to poach for themselves.One wonders if they are really highly trained flyers or highly trained operators.
I know of colleagues in the more hands on type of operation who are impressed by the strict and structured line operation and sim operation of such pilots, but significantly less impressed when they are asked to perform basic piloting handling skills.
It might be the claim that 'our trained monkeys are better than your trained monkeys, therefore we are a safer operator.' However, when the manure hits the airco I would like to sit behind the better handling pilot than the piano player wondering which button to push next to solve the problem and extricate themselves from the poo. Usually the concert musician makes it worse. The jammer improvises.
This theme has been beaten to death on here, mote than once, motivated by an unavoidable accident. It saddens me to hear that various airlines have pilots who are considered to be highly trained and competent and thus attractive for the rapidly expanding companies to poach for themselves.One wonders if they are really highly trained flyers or highly trained operators.
I know of colleagues in the more hands on type of operation who are impressed by the strict and structured line operation and sim operation of such pilots, but significantly less impressed when they are asked to perform basic piloting handling skills.
It might be the claim that 'our trained monkeys are better than your trained monkeys, therefore we are a safer operator.' However, when the manure hits the airco I would like to sit behind the better handling pilot than the piano player wondering which button to push next to solve the problem and extricate themselves from the poo. Usually the concert musician makes it worse. The jammer improvises.
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The best way to train unusual attitudes (in French "positions inusuelles") in IMC is VMC aerobatics once again. The big difference between IMC and VMC is the size of your horizon. The wide angle of the natural horizon helps to emphasize your understanding of the relative body/plane's position, and helping your eyes to grasp the horizon to recover your level position and feeling it too. It is the best training for the pilot student to fly later in IMC with the HSI with its much smaller horizon.
Why did the speed decrease since 01:40 from 280 KT to 220 KT at 01:44:30 at the beginning of the second (last) EPR anomaly episode , A/P throttle mode OFF at 01:45:08 after MCH EPR LIM ?
That was followed by the final oscillating LOC reaching 150 KT at 01:45:45 before wing/nose diving probably without stall's AOA, as Machinbird said, toward overspeed in roll and rudder fast oscillations.
Why did the speed decrease since 01:40 from 280 KT to 220 KT at 01:44:30 at the beginning of the second (last) EPR anomaly episode , A/P throttle mode OFF at 01:45:08 after MCH EPR LIM ?
That was followed by the final oscillating LOC reaching 150 KT at 01:45:45 before wing/nose diving probably without stall's AOA, as Machinbird said, toward overspeed in roll and rudder fast oscillations.
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Originally Posted by framer
Machinbird, can you please explain what you mean by the above sentence ?
Yes you can stall an aircraft in any attitude, but if the nose stays well down, there is no way to keep it from accelerating out of a stall short of a fully developed spin, and even then, the nose will rise as the spin stabilizes (if it ever does).
The above is particularly true with jets starting from high altitude.
My own unusual attitude training was in the back seat of a TF-9 Cougar with the bag covering the outside world. The sadist up front would tell you to look at your lap. Then he would pitch up and roll wing down, fail the attitude indicator, then roll inverted nose down and say, "Your airplane."
Looking back on it, it is what modern training should strive to emulate.
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Given they were in a storm system, and the engines died, then came back to life far far below (in altitude) the initial speed loss, doesn't this make a flame out likely? Seems everyone is focussing on pilots not noticing speed loss, whereas if the engines died I would say they probably noticed it but were fighting to do something?
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errrr what ?
"Given they were in a storm system, and the engines died, then came back to life far far below"
A double flameout has not, to the best of my knowledge, been suggested by the investigation.
A double flameout has not, to the best of my knowledge, been suggested by the investigation.
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Hi,
What are the odds they manage to extract something usable from the CVR
Multiple records (from BEA) are superimposed (because of not erasing)
Is such an analysis has already been done successfully in the past ?
What are the odds they manage to extract something usable from the CVR
Multiple records (from BEA) are superimposed (because of not erasing)
Is such an analysis has already been done successfully in the past ?
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