MH17 down near Donetsk

[fireflybob]

Nothing really makes sense to me here unless it was intentional or a false flag operation

Caygill, I agree with this statement.

One thing is for sure - the only aircraft flying in that area post the M17 downing are military now. So "they" know who the enemy is now.

[Eclectic]

It seems that no-one fired at MH17 - not the Kiev government, nor the pro-Russia rebels, nor Russia itself. It would therefore be in the interests of all three parties to start examining the wreckage for evidence of mechanical failure, bomb, etc. (After all, hasn't the world been on high alert recently for warnings about a plane being targeted?)

The fact that all three aren't co-operating to get investigators to the site as quickly as possible suggests to me that not one of them think it was mechanical failure or a bomb. Why are they all so sure?

If nobody shot at the T7 then how come the wreckage has shrapnel holes?

Also how come the USA IR satellite saw the missile plume. And the AWACS over Romania watched it happen?

And why were the Russian militia claiming to have shot it down on Twitter and in a phone call?

[archae86]

grazing high-speed impact damage

Originally Posted by OleOle

Lots of detailed photos of the debris:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroen...57645790319631

While much of the damage in those photos looks to my unexpert eye like the effects of an airplane tearing itself to pieces by aerodynamic loads operating on whatever the initial damage was, at least one of the photos seems perhaps to suggest high-speed external impact.

grazing with exposed honeycomb

[buffalox]

According to the BBC the train with refrigerated containers has finally left and is bound for the Netherlands. Good news at last.

[A_Van]

SadPole

You wrote: "Russia says they have evidence that Ukraine did it...."

As far as I heard, there was no definite statement that the Ukrainian forces shot the plane. And this should be appreciated in contrast to many western officials who have immediately found (better say assigned) who were the bad guys.

Regarding the words that "and so does the US since US surveillance satellite was passing over Ukraine at that very time", it is not clear what was actually meant. The LEO sat, or the ones of these constellations:
Lockheed Martin-Built SBIRS GEO-2 Missile Defense Early Warning Satellite Certified for Operation · Lockheed Martin


GEO and HEO sats do not "pass over" any particular region. The first ones are hanging over the equator permanently, the HEO ones are over the intended region/hemisphere for some 18-20 hours a day.

xcris

I fully agree that it looks absolutely stupid to use Su-25 for any air-to-air strike if there are Su-27 and MiG-29 available (Su-24 is a bomber).
Perhaps it (Su-25) was used just to monitor how the situation was developing? In particular, to make sure the poor 777 indeed reached the ground....

[liider]

Originally Posted by buffalox

According to the BBC the train with refrigerated containers has finally left and is bound for the Netherlands. Good news at last.

To Kharkov, not to Netherlands.

[ensco]

The return of the bodies is important, and not just out of respect for the dead and the families.

Autopsies can be an enormously important part of the forensics in understanding airline crashes.

[AirScotia]

If nobody shot at the T7 then how come the wreckage has shrapnel holes?

Also how come the USA IR satellite saw the missile plume. And the AWACS over Romania watched it happen?

And why were the Russian militia claiming to have shot it down on Twitter and in a phone call?

Eclectic - I haven't seen evidence for this - do you have a link?

Yes, it seems a logical inference that the plane WAS shot down, or all parties concerned would be eager to get investigators involved.

[Eclectic]

@AirScotia

It was a Tweet.
But the assets are there: NATO to fly AWACS planes over Poland, Romania to monitor Ukraine crisis | global aviation report

Edit, found this: https://twitter.com/TafkanMeh/status/489906873005801473

[SadPole]

@AirScotia

The fact that all three aren't co-operating to get investigators to the site as quickly as possible suggests to me that not one of them think it was mechanical failure or a bomb.

This whole nonsense with not allowing access to the debris field appears to be complete propaganda by Obama and Kerry. OSCE clearly described what happened, and it Obama's and Kerry's interpretation is just scummy politics of Wag the Dog at its finest.

OSCE actually complained again and again that the site is open to everyone - which resulted, among other things, in hundreds of of all sorts taking thousands of pictures and posting them on the internet, many of them showing dead bodies, until web operators started removing them.

In an interview on Friday evening with CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, Michael Bociurkiw, the OSCE spokesperson for the Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine, said the site’s perimeters were “not secure whatsoever.” Said Bociurkiw: “It’s very easy for anyone, really, to walk in there and tamper with evidence or debris. So a lot of work needs to be done. A lot of professional work needs to be done very, very quickly.”

The Crash of MH17: Where Are the Facts on the Ground? - Businessweek

I am really personally getting tired of cheap US propaganda for complete morons.

- If someone tries to guard the site - SCREAM - they are limiting access
- If they don't guard the site - SCREAM - they are allowing tampering with evidence
- If they leave the bodies laying in the fields in scorching heat - SCREAM - they are disrespecting the bodies
- If they start collecting them - SCREAM - they are disrupting evidence on the ground
etc.

It's getting very tiring. The only way to do this right would have been to send UN troops right away with all the proper equipment. And if any of the sides objected, then say who and why refused access. None of it was done. Everything else is BS for the dumb masses.

[Piper1987]

Sky news are reporting that the trains containing the bodies are en-route to Kharkiv where they will be handed over to Dutch officials before being flown to the Netherlands in a Hercules.

That's good news, seems that things are moving in the right direction just wish it hadn't taken so long.

Other reports seem to be very contradictory about the possible fighter escort provided to MH17.

Was hoping to have more facts by now instead or more speculative reporting.

[SLF305]

Regarding the words that "and so does the US since US surveillance satellite was passing over Ukraine at that very time", it is not clear what was actually meant. The LEO sat, or the ones of these constellations:
Lockheed Martin-Built SBIRS GEO-2 Missile Defense Early Warning Satellite Certified for Operation · Lockheed Martin

An irony for the Russians is that the SBIRS GEO-2 satellite was launched for the US Air Force using Russian built RD-180 engines.

[Caygill]

Re Su-25 ceiling. In the official press conference the Russian general specifically said that the SU-25 can briefly reach 10km, and the default ordanance includes the R60 air-to-air missile.

[highflyer40]

I can't see the Americans lying about the satellite evidence of a SAM launch, as they would know that too many people would have also had the equipment in place to call them on their fabrication.

As to the who's and whys the most probable is an cock up by the seperatists thinking they were firing on a military aircraft. nothing else makes sense. too many risks so so little gain for either the Russians or the Ukraine.

[xcris]

NATO's AWACS activity over Romania and Poland

Also how come the USA IR satellite saw the missile plume. And the AWACS over Romania watched it happen?

A Romanian news agency (Mediafax) reported on Friday July 11 that NATO will analyse the onboard data from the two AWACS deployed in Romania and Poland from the beginning of the conflict in Ukraine. According to the quoted source (a NATO official) the two AWACS were on service at the time and data has been sent for analysis, but "due to the distance from the service area and the crash site we don't expect that any of the AWACSes to have records of the accident"

NATO analizeaz? datele de zbor ale avioanelor AWACS din România ?i Polonia, în tragedia din Ucraina - Mediafax

[Caygill]

Further picks from the press confrence: "..the US had an experimental satellite capable of tracking missile launches flying ower the area at that exact time. Please show the world community this information...". 23m37 of the press conference

Tape ends with Russians telling that they will turn over all this material to the official investigation.

[aterpster]

con-pilot:

I agree, nothing else makes sense. I refuse to believe that Putin had a thing to do with this, my guess is that he was just as surprised as everyone else that a civilian airliner was shot down by the Ukrainian rebels.

He gave his permission, express or implied, to allow sophisticated BUK launchers to be delivered into rebel territory. Also, he surely knew about the other shoot downs in the days preceding MH17.

[Machaca]

Appears the puzzle pieces are indicating detonation proximal to port side of nose:

[DespairingTraveller]

He gave his permission, express or implied, to allow sophisticated BUK launchers to be delivered into rebel territory.

Hmm. I'd be very careful about arguing that the Head of Government of a country that supplies arms to one side or another in a conflict is personally responsible for what they are used for.

Next thing, we'll have POTUS and The Prime Minister hauled off to The Hague to stand trial for "civilian collateral damage" in <insert name of chosen conflict theatre>... People in glass houses...

Also, he surely knew about the other shoot downs in the days preceding MH17.

Shame that nugget of information, seemingly in the public domain, didn't find its way to the Ukrainian equivalent of the FAA/CAA or to Eurocontrol. Then someone might have closed the damned airspace and 298 people would going about their lawful business.

(Neither of those comments are intended to imply support for one side or the other, by the way. But using the deaths of innocents to make geopolitical hay while the sun shines doesn't exactly present an edifying spectacle, IMHO.)

[OleOle]

from Justin Bronk on twitter:


Bigger version here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtFdZCdCIAAxSQ0.jpg:large
Was that really the vector of the missile ?