Aer Lingus suspends pilots & ops (merged)
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JOBSWORTH
Talking to the MD of a long haul airline about rosters being packed with standbys to restrict days off to 12....
"we employ shift workers who do 3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off, so they average 15 days off a month...if they want 9/12 days off they take 3/4 days leave...why can't we have 3 days off after a 3 day trip to East Coast USA or 4 days off after West coast USA?
Answer..."BUT THEY WORK UNSOCIAL HOURS"
"we employ shift workers who do 3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off, so they average 15 days off a month...if they want 9/12 days off they take 3/4 days leave...why can't we have 3 days off after a 3 day trip to East Coast USA or 4 days off after West coast USA?
Answer..."BUT THEY WORK UNSOCIAL HOURS"
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It has been a difficult day. It has been a day that some of us have never imagined and all of us will never forget.
Today, after our picket of Dublin airport, we were addressed by the vice-president of the American Airlines pilot association, APA.
He spoke of the pilots of Lan Chile, who are now an association broken assunder. He spoke of Cathay Pacific, who have seen 49 of their pilots sacked for being union representatives. We see the road ahead, the ugly new oneworld.
We feel that today, in standing up to this rabid management, that we are saying on behalf of the past and future victims of the thirdworld approach, no more.
Our Chief Executive, a former pilot, has clearly stated his intentions. It is the complete destruction of the Irish Airline Pilots Association. We will not let this happen. We will hold the line.
This is a difficult time. We are without pay, and with little support in our own airline. We would like to thank all of those who have expressed support, in whatever way. Our special thanks to our oneworld colleagues who realise they are next.
We believe in this battle. We will see it to the end. We will hold the line.
Today, after our picket of Dublin airport, we were addressed by the vice-president of the American Airlines pilot association, APA.
He spoke of the pilots of Lan Chile, who are now an association broken assunder. He spoke of Cathay Pacific, who have seen 49 of their pilots sacked for being union representatives. We see the road ahead, the ugly new oneworld.
We feel that today, in standing up to this rabid management, that we are saying on behalf of the past and future victims of the thirdworld approach, no more.
Our Chief Executive, a former pilot, has clearly stated his intentions. It is the complete destruction of the Irish Airline Pilots Association. We will not let this happen. We will hold the line.
This is a difficult time. We are without pay, and with little support in our own airline. We would like to thank all of those who have expressed support, in whatever way. Our special thanks to our oneworld colleagues who realise they are next.
We believe in this battle. We will see it to the end. We will hold the line.
Last edited by cluckingbell; 30th May 2002 at 20:08.
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35 yrs in aviation 6ftunder, military and civil, as pilot. The 'i'm Chuck Yeager' thing has worn off though. You may think your'e Gods gift to civilisation but I'm afraid the rest of the world doesn't share your exalted view anymore. When pilots run around demanding to be treated as professionals you know they are not, when they need militant unions along the lines of the teamsters you know the game is up. The rhetoric above was last seen in the UK in the 60's.
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Seriph, your attitude is typical of someone who has been around as long as you have. Perhaps a bit jaded, maybe you should leave the preservation of the profession, sorry trade, sorry occupation, sorry what would you call it? to the younger guys who have an interest. Maybe you have had enough.
ex-Tanker
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Ignore Seriph - can't spell, use commas or logic (UK based) but has been a pilot for 35 years... Wind-up merchant is more like it.
Good luck to the union during this difficult time.
Good luck to the union during this difficult time.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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6feetunder,
if that piece of writing you posted was published in the press it would kill off whatever public support there may be for the pilots.
How arrogant can you get ? All that post says is "I'm better than you" What a load of garbage
"Don't compare my job to others" Have you ANY idea how many other people could say that ? Probably most of us one way or another.
I actually believe the Aer Lingus pilots have a strong case in their dispute with the airline but I'm starting to not care - mainly because of the posts on this board.
PPRuNe is not doing the pilot community any favours at the moment. I guess most journalists know about this site. I wonder which side of the argument they will start to support after reading these threads.
Regards,
V.
if that piece of writing you posted was published in the press it would kill off whatever public support there may be for the pilots.
How arrogant can you get ? All that post says is "I'm better than you" What a load of garbage
"Don't compare my job to others" Have you ANY idea how many other people could say that ? Probably most of us one way or another.
I actually believe the Aer Lingus pilots have a strong case in their dispute with the airline but I'm starting to not care - mainly because of the posts on this board.
PPRuNe is not doing the pilot community any favours at the moment. I guess most journalists know about this site. I wonder which side of the argument they will start to support after reading these threads.
Regards,
V.
niknak
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Perhaps the only good thing that may come of this is the complete reconstruction of Aer Lingus. The airline is a dinasour that hasn't, (despite the best efforts of the staff), adapted to the real world.
There have been a few comparisons to 3rd world airlines on this thread, and frankly, that just about sums Aer Lingus up.
Before you shoot me down, I've no wish to see anyone unemployed, but I've been a regular passenger with Aer Lingus over the last 12 months, and they just don't compare in terms of efficiancy or customer service, to other airlines who've turned themselves around in the last year.
Sort it, and do it quickly before someone else does it for you.
There have been a few comparisons to 3rd world airlines on this thread, and frankly, that just about sums Aer Lingus up.
Before you shoot me down, I've no wish to see anyone unemployed, but I've been a regular passenger with Aer Lingus over the last 12 months, and they just don't compare in terms of efficiancy or customer service, to other airlines who've turned themselves around in the last year.
Sort it, and do it quickly before someone else does it for you.
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More bad news for Aer Lingus
Aer Lingus has just announced that it will be unable to resume operations. They had hoped to restart the flight schedule on Sunday but this has now been ruled out. City Jet with the backing of Air France is waiting in the wings along with other Airlines to pick up some valuable routes and in particular the Heathrow slots.
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Be very careful with the phraseology on this issue - Aer Lingus are not "unable to resume services" - they are choosing not to resume services..... Big big difference. There is no reason why Aer Lingus cannot run a full schedule this weekend - apart, that is, from the fact that the CX seems determined to bankrupt Ireland's national airline - most likely so that he can pick up the pieces at a rock-bottom price.....
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Who is bankrolling these management "strike-backs"?
I can`t believe that there are a few managers in each airline, who hate pilots' unions so much that they're willing to sink the company that provides them and their families with an income, on the gamble that they will be successful in reducing pilot salaries by an effective amount, after losing hundreds of millions in the preceding "War".
Certainly the actions that Aer Lingus are taking are new ground - unless they plan on roughly following the 1989 Australian dispute, which was a financial DISASTER for ALL 4 companies involved - even WITH Government support.
A quick precis of the events for those who are unfamiliar:
i) Pilots take limited action (0900-1700 work);
ii) After 5 days, companies stand all pilots down, and cease airline operations;
iii) Pilots' union (AFAP) is declared "irrelevant" by the companies, and they refuse to talk with AFAP negotiators;
iv) Companies issue individual, personal, writs for "unspecified damages (for flight cancellations) on those pilots who were rostered to fly before 0900 and after 1700, and who didn't;
v) Pilots are advised (by QC's) to resign, to avoid further liabilities;
vi) Companies then offer Individual Contracts to pilots;
vii) The "candy" is seniority will be based on "first back = most senior", regardless of previous rank, type, and time in company (hence many junior F/O's became "senior (scab) captains";
viii) Advertise vacancies.
Perhaps Australians were too gentlemanly in their dispute, and expected the companies to play by the Marquis of Queensberry Rules. they didn't!!
Irish have a tough reputation - a Kiss of the Blarney Stone might well deter scabs more than the many ads placed in newspapers and magazines!!
Finally, without sounding boorish (I hope), one of the MOST effective weapons in the Australian episode were the leaflets (YOU ARE ABOUT TO FLY WITH A SCAB PILOT) handed out at airports to potential travellers.
They are cost effective, target the people directly affected, get YOUR message across, and attract media interest. The message is SAFETY - the people most affected and at risk are the travelling pax.
Good Luck!
I can`t believe that there are a few managers in each airline, who hate pilots' unions so much that they're willing to sink the company that provides them and their families with an income, on the gamble that they will be successful in reducing pilot salaries by an effective amount, after losing hundreds of millions in the preceding "War".
Certainly the actions that Aer Lingus are taking are new ground - unless they plan on roughly following the 1989 Australian dispute, which was a financial DISASTER for ALL 4 companies involved - even WITH Government support.
A quick precis of the events for those who are unfamiliar:
i) Pilots take limited action (0900-1700 work);
ii) After 5 days, companies stand all pilots down, and cease airline operations;
iii) Pilots' union (AFAP) is declared "irrelevant" by the companies, and they refuse to talk with AFAP negotiators;
iv) Companies issue individual, personal, writs for "unspecified damages (for flight cancellations) on those pilots who were rostered to fly before 0900 and after 1700, and who didn't;
v) Pilots are advised (by QC's) to resign, to avoid further liabilities;
vi) Companies then offer Individual Contracts to pilots;
vii) The "candy" is seniority will be based on "first back = most senior", regardless of previous rank, type, and time in company (hence many junior F/O's became "senior (scab) captains";
viii) Advertise vacancies.
Perhaps Australians were too gentlemanly in their dispute, and expected the companies to play by the Marquis of Queensberry Rules. they didn't!!
Irish have a tough reputation - a Kiss of the Blarney Stone might well deter scabs more than the many ads placed in newspapers and magazines!!
Finally, without sounding boorish (I hope), one of the MOST effective weapons in the Australian episode were the leaflets (YOU ARE ABOUT TO FLY WITH A SCAB PILOT) handed out at airports to potential travellers.
They are cost effective, target the people directly affected, get YOUR message across, and attract media interest. The message is SAFETY - the people most affected and at risk are the travelling pax.
Good Luck!
stilljustanothernumber
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Regarding the involvment of Monarch - I doubt it as we do not have spare capacity at this time of year. If we were rostered to do this dirty work it would be a breach of contract to refuse.
As for Austrailia, those people were volunteers. I don't know why they did it, but all I can say is that not everyone volunteered, so don't tar us all with the same brush.
As for Austrailia, those people were volunteers. I don't know why they did it, but all I can say is that not everyone volunteered, so don't tar us all with the same brush.
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Pilot Unions
Those bashing the pilot unions clearly don't have an understanding of the genesis of the union movement in aviation.
Just as many operating proceedures are "written in blood", so are the sections of airline pilot labor contracts. If you are delivering Pepsi, you can operate on 6 hours sleep. Even those who load the bags on the airplane can do double shifts frequently and not lose their effeciency.
The FAA requirements for flight and duty time are a bare MINIMUM. The airline unions have recognized that fact and included more realistic rest requirements in their contracts. The very same people who bash pilot unions would be very nervous knowing that the cockpit crew is on the fourth day of a trip with only 10 hour layovers.
Example after bloody(I'm not from the UK
) example of exhausted pilots flying when they shouldn't have are out there for all to see. Yet the union bashers brand us whiners. Yes, we whine--calm discourse with the management does no good!
The art of "pilot pushing" was highly refined in the '20's and '30's in the fledgling airmail/airline industry. The new-breed, money-grubbing CEO's are resurrecting their old friend to squeeze the last penny out of labor costs.
As for seriph's concern with our egos, yes, we are the best at what we do--because we have to be. We aren't driving a Cessna around the patch with only ourselves at risk. We are landing on semi-improved runways in Africa, working our way through lines of level 5 thunderstorms over Tulsa and alone in the middle of the night over the North Atlantic.
Maybe some have been in this business so long that they have forgotten the feeling you get on your first trip as Captain. You know, when things turn to s**t and EVERYONE turns and looks at you to see what YOU are going to do to fix the situation. The buck really does stop here.
We think highly of ourselves and our profession because we are expected to perform at our peak--AT ALL TIMES. We are no different than the top surgeons, Special Forces types or anyone else who holds the lives of others in their hands.
That's why we make the big bucks and that's why the travelling public cannot afford less.TC
Just as many operating proceedures are "written in blood", so are the sections of airline pilot labor contracts. If you are delivering Pepsi, you can operate on 6 hours sleep. Even those who load the bags on the airplane can do double shifts frequently and not lose their effeciency.
The FAA requirements for flight and duty time are a bare MINIMUM. The airline unions have recognized that fact and included more realistic rest requirements in their contracts. The very same people who bash pilot unions would be very nervous knowing that the cockpit crew is on the fourth day of a trip with only 10 hour layovers.
Example after bloody(I'm not from the UK
) example of exhausted pilots flying when they shouldn't have are out there for all to see. Yet the union bashers brand us whiners. Yes, we whine--calm discourse with the management does no good!The art of "pilot pushing" was highly refined in the '20's and '30's in the fledgling airmail/airline industry. The new-breed, money-grubbing CEO's are resurrecting their old friend to squeeze the last penny out of labor costs.
As for seriph's concern with our egos, yes, we are the best at what we do--because we have to be. We aren't driving a Cessna around the patch with only ourselves at risk. We are landing on semi-improved runways in Africa, working our way through lines of level 5 thunderstorms over Tulsa and alone in the middle of the night over the North Atlantic.
Maybe some have been in this business so long that they have forgotten the feeling you get on your first trip as Captain. You know, when things turn to s**t and EVERYONE turns and looks at you to see what YOU are going to do to fix the situation. The buck really does stop here.
We think highly of ourselves and our profession because we are expected to perform at our peak--AT ALL TIMES. We are no different than the top surgeons, Special Forces types or anyone else who holds the lives of others in their hands.
That's why we make the big bucks and that's why the travelling public cannot afford less.TC
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Are you all mad ?
I've just found your website by accident and I have never read such immature rubbish in my life.
The "don't compare my job to yours" reads like something a love sick 12 year old school girl would write. It is complete trite.
I have nothing to do with your industry and I suspect that most of the contributors don't either (this is more a union whinge site than a professional airline pilots page)[the professionals seem to be getting on with their jobs happily with easyJet, Ryanair etc and the ones who can't get jobs spend all day moaning on this page].
I have flow EI loyally for over twenty years but now I would be glad to see the back of them so hopefully a professional and reliable national airline can emerge. We will no longer book them for work travel - FR are simply much more reliable and professional in everything they do.
The pilots of EI are not professionals by any definition and I for one would be glad to see the back of them.
Thank god management have now got the back bone to stand up to these union bullies.
The "don't compare my job to yours" reads like something a love sick 12 year old school girl would write. It is complete trite.
I have nothing to do with your industry and I suspect that most of the contributors don't either (this is more a union whinge site than a professional airline pilots page)[the professionals seem to be getting on with their jobs happily with easyJet, Ryanair etc and the ones who can't get jobs spend all day moaning on this page].
I have flow EI loyally for over twenty years but now I would be glad to see the back of them so hopefully a professional and reliable national airline can emerge. We will no longer book them for work travel - FR are simply much more reliable and professional in everything they do.
The pilots of EI are not professionals by any definition and I for one would be glad to see the back of them.
Thank god management have now got the back bone to stand up to these union bullies.
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just a customer
You're not Michael O'leary by any chance are you? What exactly did you expect to read on a Professional Pilots Bulletin Board?
Most of the regular (pilot) contributors to this Bulletin Board will just be laughing out loud at your ridiculous assertions.
I'd start preparing myself for a flaming if I were you.
You're not Michael O'leary by any chance are you? What exactly did you expect to read on a Professional Pilots Bulletin Board?
Most of the regular (pilot) contributors to this Bulletin Board will just be laughing out loud at your ridiculous assertions.
I'd start preparing myself for a flaming if I were you.
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Quite agree 'customer' most of us find these pages embarassing to put it mildly. My sister is a nurse, she literally handles peoples lives daily, she's paid £9 per hour. I find it difficult to stay awake over the long dark stretches of ocean, the auto pilot and computers do it all, in 35 yrs in aviation I have yet to confront a life threatening situation, use your head and they are quite easy to avoid.