Bomber pilot helped land airliner after captain fell ill

[S76Heavy]

Job well done, I say. This is what CRM is really about; using all resources available to the max. Including the less obvious ones.

[Jakdaw]

Originally Posted by john_smith

That rather jumped out at me. I wonder what would have happened if he'd assessed her as not "ok" to fly the aircraft...

You don't think that "she made the right judgment and told me to close the door and have a seat" gives you an insight into his assessment of her ability to fly the aircraft alone in that situation?

[A and C]

Security tail wags the dog

BOAC

Has hit the nail on the head about the security aspects of who you should have access to the flight deck.

The security people have written the rues on flight deck access with one narrow aim in mind, that is to protect themselves and their political masters from political problems. Flight safety is not on their agenda.

In this situation a second skilled pair of hands on the flight deck was a very good move and enhanced the safety of the aircraft despite being in direct contravention of the rules.

This is a very good practical example of the saying " the rules are written for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools".

[vobmfas]

Captain is 61 years old, so I have heard.

[oceancrosser]

Originally Posted by flyboyike

Never mind that, I wanna know how old that heart attack person was.

In my pilot group, we have had 2 pilots have heart attacks in the last year, neither of them on the job. Both were in their forties, so you are coming close to a dangerous age...

[MarkerInbound]

Boeings will give you ~7 degrees nose wheel steering through the rudder pedals and +70 degrees through the tiller. Hard to do much more than make a high speed exit via the rudder pedals.

[500N]

In one of the articles, it stated that the Co Pilot asked for a "non revenue" pilot.

Any particular reason the emphasis on "non-revenue" ?

[G-ARZG]

No mystery or code there - 'non-revenue' = travelling on staff tix.
Simples!!

[Lonewolf_50]

I think she done good. As she was in charge now, with the Captain incapacitated, she decided she wanted an assist in the cockpit and she got sort of what she asked for. I suspect she was hoping for someone dead heading or repositioning, but as it worked out, I am perplexed at the criticisms leveled at the FO.

[M.Mouse]

Interesting article. I think the use of the word panicking was perhaps a little exaggeration, perhaps stressed may have been more accurate.

What came over was that Gongol's experience and background made him decide to act as support (rather than attempt to exert any sort of control over the situation) and thereby gave the co-pilot an immense pyschological boost. It is all very well saying the co-pilot is qualified and trained for the scenario which unfolded but even after command training the first time you are let loose in sole command of an airliner it is a pretty intense albeit very rewarding experience.

So for the co-pilot to be dumped in the deep end would have been extremely demanding. Sounds to me like she would have managed without any help at all but was lucky to have experienced moral and practical support to deal with the incident.

Good to hear that the captain survived and it sound like all involved deserve credit for a job well done.

[West Coast]

In one of the articles, it stated that the Co Pilot asked for a "non revenue" pilot.

My take, again MY take...

I don't want an 80 hour PPL leaping up front to save the day. I'm an instructor (LCA) and can say it's a lot easier to fly the aircraft (preferebly with automation up and running) by myself than to try and work with someone who has no real grasp on how a modern jet operates. It's not exactly easy with someone who works with different SOP's, etc, but it's manageable.

The term non rev means to me an airline guy is what the FO wanted. Quite possibly however, the announcement was made by a flight attendant anyway.

[Airbubba]

An earlier discussion here about a flight attendant helping with a pilot incapacitation:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ane-ohare.html

And, a gushing Fleet Street account "Off-duty pilot lands plane and saves 160 passengers...":

Off-duty pilot lands plane and saves 160 passengers after captain suffers heart attack - Mirror Online

Some airlines have the first officer taxi with a tiller on the right side, many do not, I've seen it both ways over the years. I think all A300's (and A310's) had two tillers until American Airlines got a supplemental type certificate removing the right tiller.

Do some 737's have both tillers?

I'm not too keen on letting the right seat pilot take a high speed turn off without a tiller, the transition to taxi speed can be a little awkward as you try to brake and turn with only the pedals in my opinion.

[400drvr]

Never mind that, I wanna know how old that heart attack person was.

Why? What's that have to do with anything. Are you trying to say only old people have heart attacks?

[Check Airman]

I'm not too keen on letting the right seat pilot take a high speed turn off without a tiller, the transition to taxi speed can be a little awkward as you try to brake and turn with only the pedals in my opinion.

I've done it many times from the right seat. Don't remember it feeling awkward. Give your FO a go next time and see what he/she has to say.

[david1300]

Originally Posted by M.Mouse

Interesting article. I think the use of the word panicking was perhaps a little exaggeration, perhaps stressed may have been more accurate.

What came over was that Gongol's experience and background made him decide to act as support (rather than attempt to exert any sort of control over the situation) and thereby gave the co-pilot an immense pyschological boost. ....

I would absolutely expect that his only thought was to act as a support. He has a fully type-rated pilot (albeit a FO) already flying the plane (and in the captains' incapacity, in charge of the aircraft). What right would anyone have to even contemplate that he might "...attempt to exert any sort of control..."

[M.Mouse]

What I meant was that he might have been one of the PPRuNe regulars who know all about everything and could quite easily have behaved quite, quite differently.

[deptrai]

This study http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a428688.pdf found found 39 in-flight medical incapacitations for a rate of 0.045 per 100,000 hours on US airline flights.

Clearly these are rare incidents, and worthy of being reported, yet I wonder...a perfectly working aircraft, with a trained and type rated pilot in control, assisted by at least a cpl level pilot with jet experience, who can handle the radio and read checklists...its not exactly the end of the world, as a passenger I would feel perfectly safe and secure (and Im fussy about not letting certain people drive me in a car). Methinks the US airforce overstated the drama just a little bit in their press release...

[Caygill]

True professionalism from both. Gongol knew the FO was best qualified to get everyone (including his family) safely on ground. Gongol's credentials were at best in providing a confidence boost for the FO, which is the exact thing he did.

I cannot help myself from theorizing though on this question:

I also had about five seconds to asses her, 'was she panicking, or was she OK to fly the aircraft?'

Is there any precedent or legal framework to "what if" he had decided she was not capable and he wanted to take over?

[deptrai]

I think you'll find that in the rare cases where both pilots of a commercial aircraft were incapacitated, passengers were also incapacitated (and/or the a/c was no longer controllable). Making laws for such a situation would be absurd. Lawmakers have better things to do. So Pic is pic and pax is pax.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Is there any precedent or legal framework to "what if" he had decided she was not capable and he wanted to take over?

Yes there is: Make a third announcement to see if there are 2 lawyers on board. Once you get an affirmative set up an arbitration room in Business class. Post that once solution has been arrived at send out a Whats app/ BBM verbal announcement to all on board to vote and based on the outcome of the vote draw up agreements as well as affidavits absolving airline, aircraft manufacturer as well as pilots form any and every litigation. Provide will making services and if possible video graph it so it is proved not under duress

Based on the above proceed with landing

For good measure lighten load by throwing out the Lawyers.