AAL 331 Kingston final report
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The crew must have seen the heavy rain on radar over the field, so do they really need ATC to tell them it's wet? I appreciate in this instance ATC didn't give the information they should have, but that is not an unusual circumstance - I get that all the time and I'm pretty sure I'm not unique! There are far too any pilots these days (and other professions) hiding behind manuals and what "others" tell them to do, not using their own eyes and ears and piecing together the big picture of what is happening around them. Even on a grooved runway with a head wind, I'll go flap 40 if I know there's a lot of rain unless windshear makes flap 30 safer. Tell me I'm not in a minority that can think these things through!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: usa
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The crew were given "some rain shower activity", not "heavy rain that has left the runway pretty much flooded with braking action poor/nil." But if it were so cut and dried, why did ATC share in the blame? Answer, because their inaccurate reporting helped set the stage for bad decisions. Regardless, we're nitpicking here: What many of you are failing to do here is to look at how this crew got subtly set up into accepting what they did. You guys are too busy announcing to the world how that could never happen to you and how you would jump all over that. Truth is, most of us would...but truth also is, most of us have been led PRECISELY down this path in the past and have been fortunate enough to break a link in the chain. In other words... "Let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone..." All I'm saying is that this crew fell prey to a classic setup, and then failed to catch the subtle warnings and one mistake piled up on another, no arguments there. But, We've all been there, so the best thing to do here is to learn from this accident and point out where stuff went wrong, as opposed to criticizing the crew over and over again and preaching how it could never happen to you.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dodgy ATC set us up all the time. I filed two reports for one approach and landing because the ATCU was so bad just the other day, at a major EU airport, but I didn't let them talk me into something foolish. Regardless, poor ATC doesn't explain why the crew refused to go around. Let's not look for excuses - if this had been an oriental or African crew, the reactions on here by many would have been quite different.
Guest
Posts: n/a
True enough, aa73. They, like anyone else who sits at front of a jet, have been led in to a classic error chain. The blame for which, is usually distributable in all directions.
That said, regardless of met conditions, any competent, safe crew would have abandoned an attempt at landing that deep, regardless of conditions.
We're the last line. Binning an unstable/out of limits/deep approach is often the final link in the chain to be broken. It should, in most instances (this one included) be an easy decision.
If the wind was 120/20 and th rwy dry, any competent pilot with a priority on safety would still go-around when he's half way down the runway with all wheels in the air.
In summary; yes, we've all seen and been part of error chains, and nobody blames the pilots exclusively for that.
Trying to press on with a landing, thousands of feet beyond the touch down zone is criminal negligence.
That said, regardless of met conditions, any competent, safe crew would have abandoned an attempt at landing that deep, regardless of conditions.
We're the last line. Binning an unstable/out of limits/deep approach is often the final link in the chain to be broken. It should, in most instances (this one included) be an easy decision.
If the wind was 120/20 and th rwy dry, any competent pilot with a priority on safety would still go-around when he's half way down the runway with all wheels in the air.
In summary; yes, we've all seen and been part of error chains, and nobody blames the pilots exclusively for that.
Trying to press on with a landing, thousands of feet beyond the touch down zone is criminal negligence.
DOVE
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Myself
Age: 77
Posts: 1,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all thank you Aluminum shuffler for expressing several times, but especially with your post 43 exactly my thought. I could not do it better!
Has anybody ever heard of:
"9 multiplied the square root of PSI (tire pressure)?"
Yes: AQUAPLANING!
No one has mentioned it. Nor in the briefging as a possible contributing cause of the paramount increase in landing distance
The ultimate and fatal hole in the cheese.
Has anybody ever heard of:
"9 multiplied the square root of PSI (tire pressure)?"
Yes: AQUAPLANING!
No one has mentioned it. Nor in the briefging as a possible contributing cause of the paramount increase in landing distance
The ultimate and fatal hole in the cheese.
Rainfall rates are defined by MET definition or WXR return which depends on selections and settings.
How can ATC determine the rainfall rate without met/measured input? ATC reported moderate rain (a subjective assessment?) which agrees with the reported WXR picture. No active Cbs were reported in the immediate vicinity.
The crew described the noise as heavy (who would use ‘moderate’ without being able to distinguish between that and heavy, the assessment ‘heavy’ was also quoted after the evac, again subjective).
“As the aircraft approached Kingston there was light to moderate rain on the weather radar, there were no significant storm cells to fly around, and the radar was indicating a broad area of moderate rain”. P26
“When they intercepted the ILS runway 12, the weather radar painted light to moderate rain”. P27
“ … approach was noisy, because of the heavy rain”. P27 (subjective – noise)
“The first officer reported checking the weather radar returns in the Kingston area, noting that he saw a wide area of green with some yellow, indicating moderate rainfall, but saw no red to indicate convective cloud buildups with heavy rain. P54
The radar was painting light to moderate rain. P65
Runway braking action is based on the measured conditions or assessment according to the Braking Action Chart.
The reported water depth was 0.1in, but it was not established if this was actually measured nor if the next measured increment would be 0.2in.
0.1 equates to wet/good braking, the accident analysis showed medium/fair, yet 0.125 is flooded by definition; (note the possibility of a data gap #64).
How might the crew decide on the braking action based on the information available; according to procedure the WXR and audio cues should have prompted medium. The FO suggested a higher A/B setting which was set; but within this there may have been an underlying belief that the charted performance was sufficient. The crew apparently thought that a wet/good rating was sufficient (supposition from advanced analysis – wet/good may have provided a small safety margin, medium would not). The operator declined to explain ‘Advanced Analysis’; perhaps a gap between operators procedures and practice !!!
This is not to excuse the crew from their professional responsibilities, but an attempt to understand the issues which makes behaving as required very difficult.
How can ATC determine the rainfall rate without met/measured input? ATC reported moderate rain (a subjective assessment?) which agrees with the reported WXR picture. No active Cbs were reported in the immediate vicinity.
The crew described the noise as heavy (who would use ‘moderate’ without being able to distinguish between that and heavy, the assessment ‘heavy’ was also quoted after the evac, again subjective).
“As the aircraft approached Kingston there was light to moderate rain on the weather radar, there were no significant storm cells to fly around, and the radar was indicating a broad area of moderate rain”. P26
“When they intercepted the ILS runway 12, the weather radar painted light to moderate rain”. P27
“ … approach was noisy, because of the heavy rain”. P27 (subjective – noise)
“The first officer reported checking the weather radar returns in the Kingston area, noting that he saw a wide area of green with some yellow, indicating moderate rainfall, but saw no red to indicate convective cloud buildups with heavy rain. P54
The radar was painting light to moderate rain. P65
Runway braking action is based on the measured conditions or assessment according to the Braking Action Chart.
The reported water depth was 0.1in, but it was not established if this was actually measured nor if the next measured increment would be 0.2in.
0.1 equates to wet/good braking, the accident analysis showed medium/fair, yet 0.125 is flooded by definition; (note the possibility of a data gap #64).
How might the crew decide on the braking action based on the information available; according to procedure the WXR and audio cues should have prompted medium. The FO suggested a higher A/B setting which was set; but within this there may have been an underlying belief that the charted performance was sufficient. The crew apparently thought that a wet/good rating was sufficient (supposition from advanced analysis – wet/good may have provided a small safety margin, medium would not). The operator declined to explain ‘Advanced Analysis’; perhaps a gap between operators procedures and practice !!!
This is not to excuse the crew from their professional responsibilities, but an attempt to understand the issues which makes behaving as required very difficult.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too much political correctness here . Even if the defenders here wish to deflect all the "insufficient data " given to the crew or the timeliness answer this .
1) does "RNAV equipped means RNAV approach approved ? Not quite the same . Many airlines can be enroute RNAV , hence the ATC filing ,but not RNAV SID,STAR or APPR approved . Responsibility falls in the front end to ask for what you need .
2) do you need more than 5 minutes to re.assess your risk level ? What if the crew were given a 25 knot landing clearance wind check at 500 ' ? Or an aircraft blocked the runway ? You ned ATC to tell you to GO?
3) braking reports , even when given are advisory,
4) many,many regions all around the world do not conform to this "requirement" to assign the into wind runway as active " . Aviation would cease if we couldn't land with tailwinds !
5) Should ATC also tell them when to flare , where to touchdown , To GO AROUND , if you float halfway down a freaking wet runway with a tailwind !!
AA73 ...good job defending your colleagues , but the preferred runway in both Jamaican airports have always been easterly and requested even with tailwinds , even wet ! No incident prior to this .You should watch your airline's " kids of the magenta circle " ! It's no wonder management and manufacturers consider us the weakest link . We are paid and expected to think and make decisions . While you may wish to deflect attention to the "fluff" , no one but the front end forced them to continue with the approach and landing !
We are in no way immune and incidents could happen to each and all , but cease the kindergarten / politically correct stuff . If you are man enough to screw it up , be man enough to accept the consequences .
So it is not about it not happening to any of us , it can . However , if one is responsible , then accept that responsibility , which hopefully the Captain has( at least privately) , because if he hasn't and is satisfied with his union's defence of his actions or lack thereof , then HE has not learned from it .
1) does "RNAV equipped means RNAV approach approved ? Not quite the same . Many airlines can be enroute RNAV , hence the ATC filing ,but not RNAV SID,STAR or APPR approved . Responsibility falls in the front end to ask for what you need .
2) do you need more than 5 minutes to re.assess your risk level ? What if the crew were given a 25 knot landing clearance wind check at 500 ' ? Or an aircraft blocked the runway ? You ned ATC to tell you to GO?
3) braking reports , even when given are advisory,
4) many,many regions all around the world do not conform to this "requirement" to assign the into wind runway as active " . Aviation would cease if we couldn't land with tailwinds !
5) Should ATC also tell them when to flare , where to touchdown , To GO AROUND , if you float halfway down a freaking wet runway with a tailwind !!
AA73 ...good job defending your colleagues , but the preferred runway in both Jamaican airports have always been easterly and requested even with tailwinds , even wet ! No incident prior to this .You should watch your airline's " kids of the magenta circle " ! It's no wonder management and manufacturers consider us the weakest link . We are paid and expected to think and make decisions . While you may wish to deflect attention to the "fluff" , no one but the front end forced them to continue with the approach and landing !
We are in no way immune and incidents could happen to each and all , but cease the kindergarten / politically correct stuff . If you are man enough to screw it up , be man enough to accept the consequences .
So it is not about it not happening to any of us , it can . However , if one is responsible , then accept that responsibility , which hopefully the Captain has( at least privately) , because if he hasn't and is satisfied with his union's defence of his actions or lack thereof , then HE has not learned from it .
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: glendale
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not making any excuses for this accident.
But a good warning to people / pilots everywhere is to watch out for illusions.
I'm not talking about the one in which you can see the flight attendant naked.
But the ones through rain soaked windshields, or on upsloping runways etc.
Look em up. Be aware.
I'd bet he would have made a better landing with the HUD off!
But a good warning to people / pilots everywhere is to watch out for illusions.
I'm not talking about the one in which you can see the flight attendant naked.
But the ones through rain soaked windshields, or on upsloping runways etc.
Look em up. Be aware.
I'd bet he would have made a better landing with the HUD off!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: usa
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents,
good discussion. Pease keep in mind, I'm not so much defending my fellow aa pilots as much as using this accident to point out the traps that can get each and every one of us. I think many of you are missing the fact that I am agreeing with you in regards to pilot error, and that maybe many of you consider it blasphemy that I actually brought up other factors that influenced this crew into making the wrong decisions. Be that as it may, this crew screwed up, but the FAA deemed them retrainable and I'm sure they are safely and conservatively carrying AA passengers to this day, and I would gladly be one of them.
good discussion. Pease keep in mind, I'm not so much defending my fellow aa pilots as much as using this accident to point out the traps that can get each and every one of us. I think many of you are missing the fact that I am agreeing with you in regards to pilot error, and that maybe many of you consider it blasphemy that I actually brought up other factors that influenced this crew into making the wrong decisions. Be that as it may, this crew screwed up, but the FAA deemed them retrainable and I'm sure they are safely and conservatively carrying AA passengers to this day, and I would gladly be one of them.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stone cold:
Oh please! Read the accident report and the thread
1) does "RNAV equipped means RNAV approach approved ? Not quite the same . Many airlines can be enroute RNAV , hence the ATC filing ,but not RNAV SID,STAR or APPR approved . Responsibility falls in the front end to ask for what you need .
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Double Oak, Texas
Age: 71
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DOVES : You can be sure the pilots here are aware of dynamic hydroplaning of tires.. I suggest you read the accident report.....
"Post accident examination of the tyres revealed no evidence of hydroplaning and no evidence that any wheel had locked up during landing. However, the right hand tyres showed melted rubber balls while the left hand tyres did not. The JCAA wrote: "The rubber balls on the right main tires could possibly be an indication that the tires were turning and the brakes were working to slow them, but there was reduced friction such that the rubber balls were not removed during the braking process. With good friction, the rubber balls would normally be scrubbed off by the runway during braking. There was no ready explanation why the tires on the right gear should have melted rubber balls, and the tires on the left gear did not."...........
"The flight data recorder indicated no anomalies with the brakes, spoilers or thrust reversers. The data indicate, deceleration was normal for a wet runway. No mechanical problems with the aircraft have been identified so far."
And most modern aircraft tires, bias, radial or H-ply tires will/can hydroplane somewhere between 6 to 9 times square root of tire pressure.
"Post accident examination of the tyres revealed no evidence of hydroplaning and no evidence that any wheel had locked up during landing. However, the right hand tyres showed melted rubber balls while the left hand tyres did not. The JCAA wrote: "The rubber balls on the right main tires could possibly be an indication that the tires were turning and the brakes were working to slow them, but there was reduced friction such that the rubber balls were not removed during the braking process. With good friction, the rubber balls would normally be scrubbed off by the runway during braking. There was no ready explanation why the tires on the right gear should have melted rubber balls, and the tires on the left gear did not."...........
"The flight data recorder indicated no anomalies with the brakes, spoilers or thrust reversers. The data indicate, deceleration was normal for a wet runway. No mechanical problems with the aircraft have been identified so far."
And most modern aircraft tires, bias, radial or H-ply tires will/can hydroplane somewhere between 6 to 9 times square root of tire pressure.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes ATP ...your point being ??
I state again that filing RNAV on your icao flight plan is not an indication that you can conduct an RNAV approach . ATC may assume this but the approach ,enroute and arrival phases are all generically filed under RNAV .To conduct the APPR requires regulatory approval . So quite simply , if they wanted it , they could have requested it , but guess what , they didn't review their options . Maybe ATC should have conducted their approach briefing also .
So yes , ATC could have offered , ATC could and should have..ad infinitum.
Perhaps everyone should read the report : the probable cause is attributed solely to pilot error .
The rest are findings ..In case you don't grasp the difference( I assure you , there is ).
The approach Controllers wx data of tailwind and moderate showers doesn't ring alarm bells and the fact that the crew requested straight in ..(traffic permitting , most if not ATC will comply with the Pilot's request ) ..seems a lot of cues were there .
Not the first time either , was it?
I state again that filing RNAV on your icao flight plan is not an indication that you can conduct an RNAV approach . ATC may assume this but the approach ,enroute and arrival phases are all generically filed under RNAV .To conduct the APPR requires regulatory approval . So quite simply , if they wanted it , they could have requested it , but guess what , they didn't review their options . Maybe ATC should have conducted their approach briefing also .
So yes , ATC could have offered , ATC could and should have..ad infinitum.
Perhaps everyone should read the report : the probable cause is attributed solely to pilot error .
The rest are findings ..In case you don't grasp the difference( I assure you , there is ).
The approach Controllers wx data of tailwind and moderate showers doesn't ring alarm bells and the fact that the crew requested straight in ..(traffic permitting , most if not ATC will comply with the Pilot's request ) ..seems a lot of cues were there .
Not the first time either , was it?
DOVE
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Myself
Age: 77
Posts: 1,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I remember well, an increase of 50 feet over the runway threshold and 10 knots of V-th each produce an additional 1,000 feet of landing distance, all other condintions been equal.
And if even more for aircraft with tail engines, but also for those with engines under the wings (reverse thrust behind the c.g.), I recall that due to the lateral component of reverse thrust, a phenomenon is triggered whereby the more the axis of the aircraft deviates from QFU (having lost the center, and trying in vain to regain it) the greater a force is generated that takes us out of the Rwy, forcing us to decrease reverser, giving up the best means of deceleration at high speeds.
So if there is a moral in this story, let’s learn from:
Aluminium shuffler
framer
And if even more for aircraft with tail engines, but also for those with engines under the wings (reverse thrust behind the c.g.), I recall that due to the lateral component of reverse thrust, a phenomenon is triggered whereby the more the axis of the aircraft deviates from QFU (having lost the center, and trying in vain to regain it) the greater a force is generated that takes us out of the Rwy, forcing us to decrease reverser, giving up the best means of deceleration at high speeds.
So if there is a moral in this story, let’s learn from:
Aluminium shuffler
This is not an issue of technical skills. It's an issue of attitude. That is why I can't forgive such events.
high temperatures and altitudes, winds, runway slopes, approach gradients, runway length, desired exit point and surface conditions. Most of my cadet FOs process the same factors with ease and without input from me, choosing flap and autobrake settings and reverse thrust amounts very similar or identical to my own assessments and raising the same "threats" I see, or at least most of them, as they brief me on their approach. It is not some mystical and hard acquired intuition but simple application of Performance A and attention to detail. That is a combination we are all supposed to have.
high temperatures and altitudes, winds, runway slopes, approach gradients, runway length, desired exit point and surface conditions. Most of my cadet FOs process the same factors with ease and without input from me, choosing flap and autobrake settings and reverse thrust amounts very similar or identical to my own assessments and raising the same "threats" I see, or at least most of them, as they brief me on their approach. It is not some mystical and hard acquired intuition but simple application of Performance A and attention to detail. That is a combination we are all supposed to have.
Ten years ago I read a report about an aircraft that had a runway change just before joining an arc, instead of turning right to arc left they were asked to turn left and arc right. They accepted the change and quickly lost SA and crashed 7 miles short of the field. At the time I was new to command and decided that if faced with that situation I would request direct to the overhead to hold and brief the new approach. Guess what, a month later that exact scenario happened to me approaching an NDB arc .the F/o read the new clearance back but I asked him to request direct to the overhead for the hold. It was easy because I had made the decision a month earlier, that was the benefit of the report to me, advanced decision making.
Last edited by DOVES; 14th May 2014 at 14:53.
Mandating HUD use is perhaps a poor SOP.
Touchdowns might be more accurate in the primary mode with FD guidance. In this accident the offset LOC prevented accurate computation of precision guidance and the HUD mode was changed (Page 28).
FPV was still available, but the Captain considered this to be too much information. FPV is a valuable tool, but if not well practiced it can be demanding. Furthermore the vector has to be referenced to both a desired approach slope (probably the same as the GS in this case) and a ground reference point – the intended point of touchdown, e.g. PAPI. There are no indications that this was the situation nor that it would be easy for this approach, thus the HUD could have been a considerable distraction.
Touchdowns might be more accurate in the primary mode with FD guidance. In this accident the offset LOC prevented accurate computation of precision guidance and the HUD mode was changed (Page 28).
FPV was still available, but the Captain considered this to be too much information. FPV is a valuable tool, but if not well practiced it can be demanding. Furthermore the vector has to be referenced to both a desired approach slope (probably the same as the GS in this case) and a ground reference point – the intended point of touchdown, e.g. PAPI. There are no indications that this was the situation nor that it would be easy for this approach, thus the HUD could have been a considerable distraction.
Am I the only one who thinks that some contributing to this thread are dancing all around the real problem?
I'm retired now, but I still remember when I was a young student Naval Aviator not yet 20 years old. A crusty old instructor (he was about 27 years old) told me, "Land into the wind". And then he gave me a long stare. Since that time I've made countless landings in high performance fighters, various commercial airliners, sailplanes, and to a lesser extent, light aircraft. Most of them were into the wind, but naturally sometimes a down-wind landing is required or at least preferable for one reason or another. Thinking back, downwind landings received my highest level of attention and my personal margin for error became more narrow.
As we all know, sometimes pilots get less than perfect information on which to base their decisions. For example, "standing water" is reported as "wet". The 6 knot tailwind is really 10 knots, HUD on, HUD off, etc, etc. etc. blah blah blah. The list of contributing factors (and semi-lame excuses) is endless and there must have been a hundred of them mentioned in this thread alone.
But all of us have had plenty of bad information passed to us and few of us here have ever crashed an airliner, so it can't be the lousy contributing factors alone.
To me, it boils down to one thing; poor airmanship resting squarely on the Captain's shoulders. The Captain elected to not land into the wind; not a serious mistake in and of itself. However, he apparently didn't couple that downwind landing with a promise to himself that he would make every possible effort to exercise good flying practices, especially given the other conditions.
How in the world could this Captain accept a landing half way down a runway under ANY circumstances (other than landing a Piper Cub at Edwards A.F.B. ) much less on a wet runway with a tailwind? I'm quite certain I've never floated half way down ANY runway, ever. I know for a fact I've never landed an airliner outside the prescribed landing zone although I've watched a few from the F/O's seat (none dangerous, just sloppy).
No matter what the circumstances leading up to this accident, I can't think of any reason to continue an approach which results in a touchdown after flying past the first half of the runway unless the airplane is on fire, and a big fire at that. Even if every single external factor were working against this crew, had the pilot flown the aircraft properly, this accident wouldn't happened. Flying a proper approach to a good landing OR going around if and when things go south is something any Captain should think about well ahead of time.
Don't tell me hindsight is 20-20. Thinking ahead, in this case, shouldn't have been all that hard. Pressing on and having a "get-'er-done" attitude is fine, but if you call yourself a Captain you must stop being foolish before you bend the tin.
I'm retired now, but I still remember when I was a young student Naval Aviator not yet 20 years old. A crusty old instructor (he was about 27 years old) told me, "Land into the wind". And then he gave me a long stare. Since that time I've made countless landings in high performance fighters, various commercial airliners, sailplanes, and to a lesser extent, light aircraft. Most of them were into the wind, but naturally sometimes a down-wind landing is required or at least preferable for one reason or another. Thinking back, downwind landings received my highest level of attention and my personal margin for error became more narrow.
As we all know, sometimes pilots get less than perfect information on which to base their decisions. For example, "standing water" is reported as "wet". The 6 knot tailwind is really 10 knots, HUD on, HUD off, etc, etc. etc. blah blah blah. The list of contributing factors (and semi-lame excuses) is endless and there must have been a hundred of them mentioned in this thread alone.
But all of us have had plenty of bad information passed to us and few of us here have ever crashed an airliner, so it can't be the lousy contributing factors alone.
To me, it boils down to one thing; poor airmanship resting squarely on the Captain's shoulders. The Captain elected to not land into the wind; not a serious mistake in and of itself. However, he apparently didn't couple that downwind landing with a promise to himself that he would make every possible effort to exercise good flying practices, especially given the other conditions.
How in the world could this Captain accept a landing half way down a runway under ANY circumstances (other than landing a Piper Cub at Edwards A.F.B. ) much less on a wet runway with a tailwind? I'm quite certain I've never floated half way down ANY runway, ever. I know for a fact I've never landed an airliner outside the prescribed landing zone although I've watched a few from the F/O's seat (none dangerous, just sloppy).
No matter what the circumstances leading up to this accident, I can't think of any reason to continue an approach which results in a touchdown after flying past the first half of the runway unless the airplane is on fire, and a big fire at that. Even if every single external factor were working against this crew, had the pilot flown the aircraft properly, this accident wouldn't happened. Flying a proper approach to a good landing OR going around if and when things go south is something any Captain should think about well ahead of time.
Don't tell me hindsight is 20-20. Thinking ahead, in this case, shouldn't have been all that hard. Pressing on and having a "get-'er-done" attitude is fine, but if you call yourself a Captain you must stop being foolish before you bend the tin.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very little mention (one paragraph that I saw) in the report deals with grooved vs. ungrooved runways. I do not understand why every airline runway is not grooved, particularly in this part of the world where high rainfall rates are common.
Would a grooved runway have prevented the overrun at their high energy state? No way (that I am aware of) to calculate. A grooved runway in Toronto would have probably prevented the Air France A-340 in Toronto.
The holes in the swiss cheese really lined up for this accident to occur. But knowledge of the runway not being grooved, particularly with a tailwind, should have further emphasized the importance of touching down "in the zone".
Would a grooved runway have prevented the overrun at their high energy state? No way (that I am aware of) to calculate. A grooved runway in Toronto would have probably prevented the Air France A-340 in Toronto.
The holes in the swiss cheese really lined up for this accident to occur. But knowledge of the runway not being grooved, particularly with a tailwind, should have further emphasized the importance of touching down "in the zone".
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand your logic for grooved but cannot evaluate whether it would have had a positive effect on the A340 at Toronto, given that everyone evacuated.
However, Airbus has introduced a system called Runway Overun Protection System which AAL has selected for their Airbus aircraft.
My understanding is that if this system had been available on the A340 at Torornto or that AAL aircraft on that day then the crew would have been advised that given the flight to touchdown conditions and the runway conditions, the landing should be aborted. I don't pretend to understand fully how this system works but the decision of AAL to select it must indicate that they see a value.
However, Airbus has introduced a system called Runway Overun Protection System which AAL has selected for their Airbus aircraft.
My understanding is that if this system had been available on the A340 at Torornto or that AAL aircraft on that day then the crew would have been advised that given the flight to touchdown conditions and the runway conditions, the landing should be aborted. I don't pretend to understand fully how this system works but the decision of AAL to select it must indicate that they see a value.
Runway Overrun Protection System (ROPS) is a very good concept except like any other automation it has to be used with care and attention to its limits.
Landing performance calculations rely on data input including braking action/runway condition, which if as in this accident were ill determined, so too will be ROPS solutions.
Will pilots have too much confidence in the ROPS pre-landing calculations? The default safety margin is 15% (shown in green), yet this is the minimum recommended value (why not show in amber) and requires significant consideration of many factors, e.g. rainfall rate, runway surface, which are not available to ROPS. Thus there could be implicit human belief that the machine is always right, whereas in this accident the initial calculations would be based on the same assumptions made by the crew.
Alerting to long flare/touchdown position is a valuable tool if heeded; will humans always follow ‘machine advice’, cf EGPWS?
Grooved runways are expensive – but not in comparison to an accident, so who pays, airport or operator. Furthermore these runways require more maintenance, more expense.
Landing performance calculations rely on data input including braking action/runway condition, which if as in this accident were ill determined, so too will be ROPS solutions.
Will pilots have too much confidence in the ROPS pre-landing calculations? The default safety margin is 15% (shown in green), yet this is the minimum recommended value (why not show in amber) and requires significant consideration of many factors, e.g. rainfall rate, runway surface, which are not available to ROPS. Thus there could be implicit human belief that the machine is always right, whereas in this accident the initial calculations would be based on the same assumptions made by the crew.
Alerting to long flare/touchdown position is a valuable tool if heeded; will humans always follow ‘machine advice’, cf EGPWS?
Grooved runways are expensive – but not in comparison to an accident, so who pays, airport or operator. Furthermore these runways require more maintenance, more expense.