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US Air PHL

Old 16th Dec 2014, 22:17
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Yes if the thrust levers had been moved to the TOGA detent, the lack of flex temp is ignored and the plane could have taken off at full thrust. (Assuming no other issues affecting engine performance).
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 07:46
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Only the CA really knows why he decided to continue.
In the old days...or should I say old equipment, you would have just pushed the power up ...or thrust in the Airbus world.

If he would have fire-walled the thrust levers, he would have been ok.

I am new to the world of the Bus as I have spent many years in Boeing land.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 09:16
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BRE
 
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If this had been a Korean or French airline, the bashing would have covered 10 pages by now...
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 11:13
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@BRE
If this had been a Korean or French airline, the bashing would have covered 10 pages by now...
Who says that there is not some to come, even the Asiana at SFO took a couple of days before the bashing really started. Same with SWA at LGA.
Stuff does happen and blame will be cast, but one fact still remains which is that it has been 13+ years since a single life has been lost on a US mainline carrier. Credit here goes to both cockpit crews and to the manufactures of the frames.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 13:22
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How many pilots now don't notice the time on the t/o run. Most I suspect. Too much reliance on the gizmo's. Varies a little by type, but if you ain't got to 100kts in 30 secs, something is wrong.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 16:50
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"Set TOGA"

According to the FlightGlobal extract, the ECAM message displayed “ENG THR LEVERS NOT SET; SET TOGA”, an instruction to set the throttles to take-off/go-around” power. The copilot...... read the first part of this message aloud, but not the instruction to increase power. The captain responded that “the power is set”, adding that he had advanced the throttles to the flex position."

So it is really a bit hard to blame the Airbus system, setting TOGA from Flex is simply firewalling the levers.

However if they are left in FLEX without a flex power computation I don't know what it would go to.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 17:16
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However if they are left in FLEX without a flex power computation I don't know what it would go to.
The detent is FLX/MCT.

FLEX has arming and engaging phases. When the thrust levers are moved to FLX/MCT, but the FLEX conditions are not met, then FLEX mode will fail to engage.

That means the engines will stay at MCT, which is not enough for takeoff.

Hence the "retard, retard, retard" warning at 80 kts, which the pilots elected to ignore.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 18:09
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Thanks. 24 years since I flew it so had forgotten a lot of details!
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 09:31
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My experince on airbus planes is about 0 minutes. The rest is on boeing A/C. What interests me is the way an airbus reacts to not inserting the V-speeds. Apparently you get no more that MCT thrust when you advance. How much is this MCT, in terms of % N1 ?
On a boeing aircraft, as long as the flaps are set, and you advance thrust levers to 100%, you will be able to fly. Pressing TOGA is not strictly necessary, i.e. It won't hinder the airplane from taking off....
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 04:54
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I always check my killer items before takeoff-flaps, slats, trim, etc. But I also check V-speeds displayed and LNAV/VNAV displayed.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 07:10
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"I love you "I always" guys......... You're "always the guys" that are except 'this once" guy's!!!
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 14:26
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Originally Posted by bloom
"I love you "I always" guys......... You're "always the guys" that are except 'this once" guy's!!!
Just making a suggestion based on what I do. It would have broken the chain. Safety advocates "love" that sort of thing.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 14:46
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BLOOM ; Damn you ! Spilled me coffee , again. Love it ! ICE-PAK; Brill. But they call that airmanship which is not taught these days. I am going to adopt this but, of course, I will tell everyone that it was MY idea. Always managed seat of the pants stuff. Non acceleration was something I would just feel. Still, always been a sensitive ass !
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 19:11
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Now the medications are interesting.

Fentanyl is an analgesic. Its a synthetic opioid and is very useful in both acute and chronic pain. It should most certainly have been declared to his supervisors that he was prescribed it.

Midazolam is interesting too. Its quite strong, even in mild doses, and in combination with fentanyl would be quite disabling, although 45 hours is well beyond the half life of the drugs, even combined.

I'm presuming the "stress test" relates to a cardiac test? Its a wonder he didnt fall asleep on the treadmill.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 21:46
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Evacuating with baggage

In the earlier part of this thread there was a lot of condemnation of PAX taking their handbags off the plane during evacuation and some folks saying they should be banned from flying again.

It looks to me from the pictures that they were carrying handbags not luggage. Presumably this baggage was stowed under seat in front and ready to grab without opening overhead stowage.

How would you survive if evacuated from an aircraft at a location thousands of miles from home, with no cash, no wallet, no credit cards, no passport, no driver license, no car keys, no house keys, no flight tickets, no hotel confirmation, no essential medication, no inhaler, etc? You would be just an anonymous bum that no-one can help.

How many days might it take for the authorities to inspect, verify and deliver your bag to you, or worse, it just gets burnt up in a post evacuation fire?

Most folks put all that survival paperwork and essential stuff in a grab-bag for just such an emergency. It won’t all go in your pocket, and it will be a high personal priority to take it with you.

The balance of risk and reward suggests that it is far preferable to deplane with a grab bag than be left at the mercy of circumstances. Most people know this, and despite what it might say in the flight “safety” briefing, most people will ignore it and take a grab bag. They know it makes sense.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 22:21
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In the old days of early efis airbus (A300) if was part of the prefight prep to extract a toga value and compute a flex value from the QRH based upon the assumed temperature from the performance chart.The assumed temperature was selected on the thrust rating panel and it computed an N1 which was checked against that on the bug card This plus the appropriate speeds were written on the bug card and then checked by your colleague.
In the less paper world of fbw Airbus ( no computation of power settings by the pilot) the target thrust appears in the upper right of the EWD and when you state thrust set you should compare this value with the actual thrust set. This is meant to have been achieved by 80kt. I doubt most airbus pilots would know roughly what a typical value of toga would be or the N1 for a full derated take off.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 22:54
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enola-gay

Let's see. You evacuate a plane in one of America's largest cities. And you are thinking there would be no help for you beyond getting you a safe distance from a plane?

A woman is likely to keep her purse with her on her lap. A man has a wallet in his pants. Both would have credit cards and ID and perhaps cash. (at least my wallet would). Either way they could come easily with you (assuming reasonable sized purse for a lady) this is not to be confused with hand held luggage.

I keep my cellphone in my shirt pocket.

I keep essential meds for a family member in my shirt pocket and a list of other meds in my wallet.

and even IF I had all my clothing and belongings burned off my back, I would know that those brave firefighters would get me some place safe and someone would offer me help (American Red Cross).

AS to paying for the help at some future time, if the airline didn't come across willingly, they would be sued.

Evacuating with your luggage is the wrong thing to do and should be punishable by law if it ends up contributing to the death or injury of a fellow passenger.

Sorry, you would not be an anonymous bum. Help would be forthcoming. Mind you someone is unlikely to give you a mink stole if you lose yours, but someone will give you a blanket until things come together.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 23:21
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Reply to Glendaleloon

Good evening Glen.


I see your response was specifically about big American cities. What about the rest of the world?


1. Jakarta. I have colleagues who were burnt alive on a drilling rig in the Java Sea. Helicopter casevac to Jakarta without grab bag. Response by Indonesian immigration " no passport, no bags, no cash - no exit " . The captain of a KLM DC8 overheard the incident on radio. He held his aircraft at Kemayoran (as was) and went to the Indonesian immigration authorities to demand that he could casevac to Singapore. After several hours delay and intervention of KLM in Amsterdam and British Embassy in Jakarta, the casualties were allowed to leave for the burns unit in SIN


2. Nigeria/ Iraq/ . Try walking away from an aircraft incident without ID or handbag. Try getting prescription medication there.


Most people will take the risk/reward view and take a grab bag to be safe in person in an orderly evacuation. When has that ever resulted in a fatality on evacuation to your knowledge?
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 00:25
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enolagay

maybe I misread the title of this thread...USAIR PHL?

come on

if you travel to those ''exotic places"...all the best to you. But this thread is PHILADELPHIA. NOt a bad town.
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 00:59
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Everything On My Person

How would you survive if evacuated from an aircraft at a location thousands of miles from home, with no cash, no wallet, no credit cards, no passport, no driver license, no car keys, no house keys, no flight tickets, no hotel confirmation, no essential medication, no inhaler, etc?
I consider that every flight puts me in a survival situation. Everything above, except hotel confirmations, including 24 hours worth of essential medications, is on my person. A list of those essential meds is in each of two wallets which stay zipped in my pockets.

Wearing high-heeled shoes, taking wallets and passports out of pockets is simply stupid.

BE PREPARED!
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